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Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 2:02 am
Something GC said recently about sin, the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve messing things up made me wonder. Haven't heard back yet on that thread but I'd be curious what the Christian community here might think about these things. Naturally, atheists are more than welcome to weigh in if they like.
#1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan?
#2 If so, why do you think God was incapable of making it work out the way he wished, and, does that make you wonder what other intentions God has been unable to actualize?
#3 If not (i.e., if you agree that leaving the garden was God's plan all along), what does sin have to do with it?
#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 8:38 am
Straight the heart of matter,
Right to the beautiful part
Illusions are painfully shattered
That's where discovery starts.
Neil Peart
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 8:39 am
(November 25, 2014 at 2:02 am)whateverist Wrote: Something GC said recently about sin, the Garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve messing things up made me wonder. Haven't heard back yet on that thread but I'd be curious what the Christian community here might think about these things. Naturally, atheists are more than welcome to weigh in if they like.
#1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan?
#2 If so, why do you think God was incapable of making it work out the way he wished, and, does that make you wonder what other intentions God has been unable to actualize?
#3 If not (i.e., if you agree that leaving the garden was God's plan all along), what does sin have to do with it?
#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?
I hope you get actual answers and not religious people tap dancing around your questions. The only way that Christians can claim that their deity is kind and loving is to believe that the Genesis story is a metaphor.
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 11:21 am
This is exactly what I struggled with. Sin must have been an accident or planned. Either way, god screwed up
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 11:44 am
I'll take a shot at these with what I can recall from my time as a believer.
(November 25, 2014 at 2:02 am)whateverist Wrote: #1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan? The JW view is that expanding the garden to fill the Earth was the ultimate expectation. Adam and Eve would start to populate the planet, and as humanity grew we would continue to expand the borders of the garden until the whole planet was a paradise.
Quote:#2 If so, why do you think God was incapable of making it work out the way he wished, and, does that make you wonder what other intentions God has been unable to actualize?
This is where free will comes into play. In order to be truly free of mind, humanity had to have the freedom to do wrong as well as right, and thereby prove themselves loyal or not. I think the JW point of view is that, had there been any humans who had not sinned, then only the wrongdoers would have been removed and the rest would continue to live in the garden. Since Adam and Eve were the only ones around, the whole plan was derailed.
(It's an explanation that sounded reasonable when I was a theist, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny now.)
Quote:#3 If not (i.e., if you agree that leaving the garden was God's plan all along), what does sin have to do with it?
Since the plan was to turn the whole world into a garden of Eden, the derailing of the plan meant that it would be put off until the mess was sorted out. The ground would now be cursed, and not plentiful. The animals would be fearful and dangerous instead of subjugated. Woman would suffer birthing pains. Man would suffer... woman, I guess.
Quote:#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?
Man, of course, since god cannot possibly be blamed for the mess. Adam and Eve misused their free will and tainted humanity with sin. Jesus showed that it was possible to remain loyal and free of sin until death, thus removing any possible excuse that Adam and Eve might have.
(As with question 2, this is one of those answers that is designed to patch a hole, not provide a compelling reason for belief. It doesn't hold up once the questions start.)
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 11:53 am
(November 25, 2014 at 11:44 am)Tonus Wrote: Quote:#4 For that matter, if man's nature is sinful and God is man's creator, who is really responsible for sin?
Man, of course, since god cannot possibly be blamed for the mess. Adam and Eve misused their free will and tainted humanity with sin. Jesus showed that it was possible to remain loyal and free of sin until death, thus removing any possible excuse that Adam and Eve might have.
(As with question 2, this is one of those answers that is designed to patch a hole, not provide a compelling reason for belief. It doesn't hold up once the questions start.)
But does God himself not have free will? If so, how does He remain free of sin? Whatever it is that allows Him to do so would have been a good thing to include in His design for man. (God sounds like one of those cooks who can't give you a recipe without leaving out a key ingredient.)
Was God just not clever enough to put us together right or was he just being a mischievous sinner himself? If we are truly in his image it is probably the latter. Well played, God, well played.
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 25, 2014 at 12:17 pm
(November 25, 2014 at 11:53 am)whateverist Wrote: But does God himself not have free will? If so, how does He remain free of sin? At this point we're sliding right on down the slippery slope at something close to terminal velocity. We've seen how theists will answer this one (god makes the rules, and what he does is good by definition, therefore he cannot possibly sin) and the explanation seems dismissive to me. "God can't sin because he is god... next question!" It makes any further investigation superfluous and, to the theist, very dangerous. To dig any deeper requires the assumption that god could do wrong, and therefore is not perfect.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 26, 2014 at 11:07 am
(November 25, 2014 at 11:53 am)whateverist Wrote: But does God himself not have free will? If so, how does He remain free of sin?
Well, technically speaking, sin is defined as a transgression against divine laws. Basically, God says "do" or "don't", and failing to adhere is "sin". So, as long as God doesn't create any divine rules for himself he wouldn't even be capable of sinning.
Awesome thread, BTW. I, too, would like to see some real answers to the questions.
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 26, 2014 at 2:54 pm
It's all allegory to me. Anyone can see that God won't talk to a snake.
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RE: Questions for Christians
November 26, 2014 at 3:30 pm
(November 25, 2014 at 2:02 am)whateverist Wrote: #1 Are you sure leaving the garden wasn't part of God's plan?
Indeed if leaving the garden wasn't part of the plan why not only make the Garden?
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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