Suicide: An Ethical Delimna

[The Grand Nudger]

You have strange parents.

[robvalue]

Yes I do. I hate their guts, sadly. I have pretty much no relationship with most of my family.

[thesummerqueen]

In identical circumstances, Brian didn't, Clay did, Randy didn't and Ken did. Dave should have, and we all wonder why Ernie did.

Hell if anyone could get a coherent answer from me on the subject.

And they were all in love with Dy and drinking from a fountain.




Not wanting to re-rail, but I couldn't resist.

Much cheers to all.

That was brilliant.

[ManMachine]

I have to disagree there.

If we personify evolution, then suicide is just another way to weed out the "unfit".

Further, it's impossible to help or hinder evolution, because evolution is just "whatever happens". Everything we do, or don't do, is just part of evolution.

I think a lot of people assume without any thought that keeping the human race going is important, and good. I totally disagree with this too. It's only good for us. For the planet as a whole and for all its other inhabitants, we are awful. It's just one of the reasons I would never create more humans.

I value animal life as much as human life, as much as I can. (I know this is an impossible ideal to live up to when you consider insect life and so on, but at least with the larger, more intelligent forms of life.) If there's something you wouldn't do to a human, then in general, you shouldn't do it to an animal. Otherwise, were just being bullies and are no better than slave drivers.

And if we personify gravity I would be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but I can't.

The 'human race' is a myth. What we view as permanence is a snapshot in the endless genetic drift, your argument is predicated on the belief we are worse than other animals, the truth is we are no better nor no worse, we just are. Our genes will continue to drift and even though we believe we have control over that genetic material we do not have any foresight as to what mutation will be the next 'human saver' when the next major environmental shift occurs. There is a possibility we may have already marginalised it without knowing.

We are a particularly rapacious primate, of that there seems to be little doubt, but we are still just passing waves in the genetic tide. We are no more or no less worthy of this planet than any other wave.

Suicide has nothing to do with this genetic tide, it is an ancient survival strategy (loss - depression - withdrawal - recovery - live to fight another day) a physiological and psychological process that no longer has a context in the modern world.

If we think of ourselves as unfit, then it is only because we have created a society that is too big for us to fit.

MM

[Losty]

I disagree with the idea that suicide is an individual decision. A person's parents have invested very much time and effort in raising the person. The government has provided schooling, healthcare and other services.

Does this oblige a person to continue living?

A self-centered teen will often declare "I didn't ASK to be born. I didn't want to go to stupid old school anyway. Why do I owe anything to anyone?" I disagree with this sentiment, because all those abstracts represent a real usage of resources: food, clean water, etc. as well as indirect damage, like the destruction of a small forest in order to make paper for the person's lifetime of reading and toiletries.

Yeah, but the argument that they should continue to live, against their will, and cause more of this incidental damage because they've already caused some, is irrational.

Nobody asked to be alive, that is true. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty shitty to dine and dash. If one's life is to be thrown away, why not spend a couple years planting trees, or working with needy kids or something? Why just flip a giant bird to the good that could be done if one wasn't such a selfish, childish prick?

It's much more selfish to shame a person who wants to die (not to mention, the best way to approach a suicidal person if you want to reinforce the lack of self-worth that drives so many people to it) because you are offended by the fact that they don't see the same reasons you do to keep living.

Homophobes hate homosexuals because they were taught to find it icky and unnatural. Arguing against suicide from a position of "because I don't like it" doesn't have the hate element, but the moral ground is similar in all other respects.

I don't know....when I read benny's comment I thought it sounded pretty hateful.

[Aractus]

I highly suggest watching "The Bridge" (2006), which shows more than a dozen suicides as they happen. In my opinion since it depicts reality it should be exempt from classification, but the assholes at the Australian Classification Board disagree and rated the film MA15+, which at least was not the 18 certificate it got from the BBFC or R18+ from the NZ OFLC (who are obviously total assholes). Disturbing content my goddamned ass, it's a documentary that features TALKING and scenes which show the suicides they talk about, it was filmed respectfully and secretly (i.e. they didn't let anyone know they were filming the bridge in case it affected anyone's decision).

It is required viewing if you are thinking of suicide and it's impossible not to be moved by the film.

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Note if you will that 11'09"01 (2002) which, for a full 11 minutes and nine seconds, shows people jumping to their deaths from a building was only rated AU- M and UK- 12. But people jumping from a bridge is suddenly AU- MA and UK 18! What a god-damned joke.

[Chad32]

Why would depictions of reality be exempt from classification?

[robvalue]

MM, to me you seem to be jumping in and out of thinking about things from an evolution standpoint.

If you consider evolution, then everything that happens, suicide included, is part of evolution. Because evolution is what happens. It's a tautology, it's the very definition. You can't alter evolution, the environments change as a result of evolution, which evolving species then adapt to. It's a cycle. But agreed, from this point of view we are no better or worse than anything else. This is of no real worth though as an observation, because we don't make moral decisions or evaluations based on evolution.

You can only "alter" evolution if you define it in a certain way under certain conditions, such as not having the environment radically changed or DNA being messed with. But that's just one possible path evolution could take, and it's not what is really happening, so it's useless to think of it that way. That is a world without humans.

If you're not considering evolution, and I think it's pointless to do so because evolution has no aims anyway, then objectively we are fucking terrible. We screw over other species and the planet, and it would be better for all of those other species if we weren't here. Say if we came to that conclusion as a species and wiped ourselves out on purpose, then that would be objectively good for the planet and the other species. And it would still be part of evolution.

[Aractus]

Why would depictions of reality be exempt from classification?

Because that's the definition. That's why the news, the highest rated show on TV, is exempt from classification.

[bennyboy]

I disagree with the idea that suicide is an individual decision. A person's parents have invested very much time and effort in raising the person. The government has provided schooling, healthcare and other services.

Does this oblige a person to continue living?

People are not obliged to behave ethically. But I think having received help from others, but not to be willing to stick around and at least do as much good as one has received, is unethical in my view.

A self-centered teen will often declare "I didn't ASK to be born. I didn't want to go to stupid old school anyway. Why do I owe anything to anyone?" I disagree with this sentiment, because all those abstracts represent a real usage of resources: food, clean water, etc. as well as indirect damage, like the destruction of a small forest in order to make paper for the person's lifetime of reading and toiletries.

Yeah, but the argument that they should continue to live, against their will, and cause more of this incidental damage because they've already caused some, is irrational.

No it's not. If you've made a conscious decision to die, your life is disposable. There are a great many things that you could do in that state, including a less-than-zero impact lifestyle.

Nobody asked to be alive, that is true. Nevertheless, I think it's pretty shitty to dine and dash. If one's life is to be thrown away, why not spend a couple years planting trees, or working with needy kids or something? Why just flip a giant bird to the good that could be done if one wasn't such a selfish, childish prick?

It's much more selfish to shame a person who wants to die (not to mention, the best way to approach a suicidal person if you want to reinforce the lack of self-worth that drives so many people to it) because you are offended by the fact that they don't see the same reasons you do to keep living.

Who said I'm offended? I'm making the argument that suicide is intrinsically selfish, and that intrinsically selfish actions, when they negatively affect the greater good, are unethical.

Now, if someone no longer CAN contribute to the greater good (say they are lying in bed with terminal cancer), that's a very different issue. Then you're just talking about unnecessary suffering.

Homophobes hate homosexuals because they were taught to find it icky and unnatural. Arguing against suicide from a position of "because I don't like it" doesn't have the hate element, but the moral ground is similar in all other respects.

That's a weird analogy on at least two levels: first of all I didn't say I hate people who want to kill themselves, or that my reason for taking a position against suicide was because I don't like it. Second, what the hell does homosexuality have to do with a behavior which is intrinsically selfish?

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I don't know....when I read benny's comment I thought it sounded pretty hateful.

I don't really hate people who want to kill themselves-- I hate the quality of weakness or despair that allows people with a chance at a good life to throw it away because they are feeling depressed or thinking irrationally. My mother was suicidal-- should I have, at the age of 4 or 5, supported her "right" to end her life? I myself have contemplated suicide. Should I disregard my childrens' best interests if I decide I've had enough of this world?