Indoctrination & Mental Gymnastics

[Aoi Magi]

I think you should introduce her to this forum. I believe there are some people here who are looking for a theist to debate with.
(Well, it's their time, not my concern how they waste it...)

[Godscreated]

To provide some context, I'm discussing this with a cousin. I care for her, as much as she does for me. She was indoctrinated into Christianity like so many others and can't seem to think rationally when it comes to her religion. I know she's more intelligent than this, and this bronze age belief is only hindering her potential. I'd like to continue the discussion and make an impact, but I'm not sure what to say next.

Her: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KGlx11BxF24

Me: Great propaganda. They really try hard to make you feel like you're doing something wrong, pulling all those existential strings. To your perception, God sacrificed himself, to himself, to save' us, from himself. "Worship me so I can save you from what I'm going to do if you don't worship me." The first four commandments all relate to Yahweh's gigantic ego. Those four would have been better used for commandments like "thou shalt not rape" "thou shall not have slaves" "thou shall not harm children" and "thou shall treat everyone as equals" Imagine what things would be like if the writers had made him less egocentric. Selflessness is a value the abrahamic deity lacks.

She'll come to see this keep it up.

Her: To save us from himself? No he's trying to save us from Satan. But the choice is ours if we want to be saved or not.

Me: Lucifer? The guy that killed 10 people in the bible? Or do you mean Yahweh? The guy that killed 2,821,364 people in the bible? Oh, so you're telling me that the other 5 billion living people on the planet will all go to hell because they believed in the wrong God? All the Islamic, Buddhistic, and Hinduistic children? All of the kind people who care for others...and aren't Christian?

Keep this up she'll break.

Her: I'm saying if people have the chance to accept Christ and they do then they're saved. But if they reject him then they're not... But if they never had the chance to know Him then they probably aren't condemned because they had no way of knowing.

Me: So rejecting your specific deity equates to agonizing torture in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity? Sounds fair. Out of the world's 4,200 active religions and the hundreds of thousands of gods and goddesses, you expect them to pick Yahweh? It's a needle in the haystack and it's likely everyone else feels that their own deity is the right one. Your an atheist for every god created by humanity except for that one. If you were born in the Middle East you would be Islamic and claim that Allah is the one true God. If you were born in classical Greece you would believe in Zeus. If you were born in India you would believe in Vishnu. You had no choice in choosing a religion or God, your parents did that for you.

Yes, this will convinces her in time.

Her: There simply are no other gods besides the One True God. If you're worshipping something else you're living a lie. None of the other gods can heal, or speak directly to people, or help guide people's lives, because they're simply not real, because they were made up by people.

Me: You're performing some serious mental gymnastics to avoid rationality. Everyone believes that their God is the real God, everyone believes that their God affects the world and no one else's. Your God is as real as all the other Gods. It's subjective and determined by your culture. I know you're smarter than this, think outside of your perspective, consider why others believe in their gods and the look back at why you do.

Man, this is good stuff, don't leave this out.

Her: I don't understand why people believe in false gods. Probably because it's all they know if they've never had a chance to meet the one true God. I know why I believe in my God. Because He is the one true God. I have seen him move directly in my life. I've seen Him do amazing things. There's no other proof I need.

Me: Where your born has a greater impact on what God you'll believe in than anything else. If you were born in a non-Christian region, you would not believe in the God you do now. If Yahweh is so omnipotent, why has there yet to be a child born with the foreknowledge of Yahweh's supposed existence? Why were you taught about this God at a young and impressionable age, rather than inheriting the information?

She want be able to stand against this logic, keep it up.

Her: Because it's our job to spread that knowledge and share the good news. You can live a missional life in your own town, or in another country, according to where you're called.

Me: That's an absurdly convoluted plan for a God. Look at how convinced you are of your own God's existence, now imagine how others may feel about their own. The God you worship is as real to you as their God is to them. You may find that they are as convinced as you are in their reasoning. Try to convert them, seriously attempt to convert a Hindu, Buddhist, Islamist, or Jew to Christianity. Grab every evangelical Christian you can find and attempt to convert the other 4.8 billion people in the world. It's been tried in the past, erupting nothing more than conflict.

Good, very good, she want know what hit her.

Her: If God puts someone of a different religion in my life than I shall. I won't get anywhere trying to do it alone, just to prove something. God must work in their heart to help them see the truth.

Me: So, God is powerless without someone to speak for him?

You're getting her backed into a corner.

Her: No He's not. He has a plan. Like I said, He speaks through people. And to people if they will listen. People don't speak for Him. He speaks through people.

Me: God's plan? That sounds like a feeble attempt to explain natural disasters killing millions. If the concept of God's plan is true, you have to accept that it's in God's plan for us to abort children. If God is both omnipresent and omnipotent, you must accept that God willfully allows the murder of innocent people and permits rape to take place. Epicurus says it best. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comets evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

That one should take her over the edge.

Her: When we first sinned we gave over control to Satan. This is why our world is broken. When Jesus returns he will conquer all evil for good. Try reading Revelation. God is willing and able to conquer evil, but His perfect timing is a must. It's not Him that allows it, but us.

She might be too far into it...thank you for reading. If you can perhaps critique my own comments or help me build an appropriate response for such...ridiculousness. It would be greatly appreciated.

Your pathetic, that's all the crap they have here and you expect them to give you something new, you all have used up your limited capacity to use your pitiful logic to change our hearts.
Have you told her what you're doing, running for help, why no, you know she'll laugh behind your back and to top it off your a coward if you do not tell her you're seeking help from other atheist.
You like other atheist do not like Christians to witness to you, so why are you doing the same thing, because you don't care about her, you just want to stroke your pride.

GC

[Kitty Galore]

I think he just loves his sister, believes she is intelligent and has been brainwashed. That she could do better, and deserves better?

What are her thoughts on dinosaurs? That is one of the most elementary arguments to me.

[Minimalist]

G-C gives you an example of the kind of fucking fool you are up against.

Fairy Tales, si.
Reality, no.

Story of his life.

[Glitch]

Heya glitch

Wow, you did a pretty good job there from what I can see. You came at it from many angles, with lots of solid arguments. She is clearly really far gone, with those mental defences set up strong.

I'll have a think about any other arguments you could use. It may just be that she is unreachable. But you never know, she may absorb some of the arguments even if she appears to ignore them, and she may subconsciously think it over a bit. With someone that fundamental it will take a lot of time and patience!

I'll rack the old noggin

I'm relieved to hear...or read, someone saying that. I don't know many atheists, this forum is great. Few deistic, agnostic, and a few lightly theistic friends. Little by little I can help her use critical thought, I believe I'm the first atheist she's known. I'm sure she'll encounter plenty more now that she's in college.

For me, history has been more persuasive than philosophy. Christians can always fall back on things like "the Lord works in mysterious ways" when confronted with evidence that the theology doesn't make sense. I've tried to learn as much as possible about the development of the Bible, Judaism, and Christianity. It seems like different techniques work for different people.

She may be reluctant to question the faith, I'll try to nudge her in the right direction. I have no intention of making her an atheist, I just want her to use her critical thinking in a more open way. She's restricted by fantasy. I'll keep referencing other religions and their similarities. Thank you.

Here's something she probably doesn't know, the Ten Commandments are not what people usually think they are, see video below.

Ooooh, good one. I can start with breaking down cultural misconceptions. She uses the NIV version of the Bible, so its perfect for just that. I love it. Thanks for the video, I may have encountered it in the past but have all but forgotten about it.

That is a very good thought, and I highly recommend Bart D. Ehrman to the OP. He came from good Christian stock and worked his way to agnosticism through studying the OT and the historical Jesus. Of his books, Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium, would be best. He has a number of gooog youtube presentations, and is a Great Courses lecturer (I recommend, How Jesus Became God). All of the Great Courses series are ridiculously overpriced but about 20 % of them are on sale and therefore reasonably priced at any given time.

The thing is that he comes from what might be her point of view, rather than making a blatantly head-on attack.

Hm, I'll find some of his work. Could very well make for a good read. Unfortunately, she lives on the other side of the country. I've offered to send her books in the past, but she declined politely. 'save your money'

Yeah, getting a load of examples of how Christianity completely ripped off earlier mythologies may be good. It's just a voodoo patchwork doll of dead religions with a new coat on.

She has to say all the previous ones are false, yet obvious copied parts of them are now suddenly true in Christianity.

Mhm, definitely. I had encouraged her to read text from other religions, but I'm not even sure she's read her own Bible...showing that to her will help piece together previously unconnected similarities. I'll do that. Thank you for the help.

If she really thinks gawd speaks through people, show her the biblical contradictions and ask her why he is giving out contradictory and misleading info. You can use the few hundred doomsday prophecies too.

If she thinks only her true god does miracles, a quick google will give you a few million miracles from other religions.

I showed her a list of contradictions, but again, the mental barriers cropped up. "Those were taken out of context" Nervous demeanor and averting her attention to something else. I'll keep it in mind though, so many contradictions its rediculous.

You could have her study the origins of written language. More than likely, she probably never even considered that. She probably subconsciously assumes the Bible is so old and started somewhere near the beginning of time 6-7000 years ago. Hell, she might not even have a timeline worked out in her head. If you shine a little light on the time frame of human ingenuity, it might give her some wiggle room to actually think about how things must have come about.

I always knew about evolution an I accepted it as a Christian, but I kept the two words apart. When I started my search for God I was forced to connect the two worlds in my head. Thinking about the whole of human existence really makes the bible seem silly.

She probably isn't or won't be ready for that, though. Too far gone, as others have said.

I wish I was a history buff, I'm not sure I know enough to discuss that area. I'd rather not spread misinformation, so I'll read more about it, thank you very much for the suggestion. She's not convinced of evolution, the big bang, or abiogenesis one way or another. So I might have to save those for when she's accumulated enough doubt or inquiry.

I think you should introduce her to this forum. I believe there are some people here who are looking for a theist to debate with.
(Well, it's their time, not my concern how they waste it...)

I could very well introduce her to the forum. I like the idea, you all seem rather friendly with the exception of 'Godschild'. She was looking to 'save' people of differing faith, perhaps I can convince her it can be done here.

Your pathetic, that's all the crap they have here and you expect them to give you something new, you all have used up your limited capacity to use your pitiful logic to change our hearts.
Have you told her what you're doing, running for help, why no, you know she'll laugh behind your back and to top it off your a coward if you do not tell her you're seeking help from other atheist.
You like other atheist do not like Christians to witness to you, so why are you doing the same thing, because you don't care about her, you just want to stroke your pride.

You seem to be rather cynical, I'm sorry to see that. I do appreciate you being on these forums, otherwise we'd have no one to discuss these things with. Constructive criticism would have been better suited for the discussion. Thank you for commenting.

I think he just loves his sister, believes she is intelligent and has been brainwashed. That she could do better, and deserves better?

What are her thoughts on dinosaurs? That is one of the most elementary arguments to me.

Good question, I'm not quite certainly she's a young Earth creationist. I suppose I'll bring that up soon. As for my cousin, yes, I think she has a lot of potential. When it comes to topics outside of religion she's rather articulate. She has a wonderful attitude, always smiling, but its not because of her faith alone.

[Godscreated]

---

Your pathetic, that's all the crap they have here and you expect them to give you something new, you all have used up your limited capacity to use your pitiful logic to change our hearts.
Have you told her what you're doing, running for help, why no, you know she'll laugh behind your back and to top it off your a coward if you do not tell her you're seeking help from other atheist.
You like other atheist do not like Christians to witness to you, so why are you doing the same thing, because you don't care about her, you just want to stroke your pride.

---

You seem to be rather cynical, I'm sorry to see that. I do appreciate you being on these forums, otherwise we'd have no one to discuss these things with. Constructive criticism would have been better suited for the discussion. Thank you for commenting.

I'm not being cynical, it's nothing different than the atheist here would have said if you were telling about her trying to convince you to become a Christian. How do you think she would feel if she knew you were here looking for help against her. Like I said you would not like it if a Christian was trying to change your mind, so why do this to her.

GC

---

G-C gives you an example of the kind of fucking fool you are up against.

Fairy Tales, si.
Reality, no.

Story of his life.

Ever think that he/she might not like you calling the cousin a fool, why no, that's who you are.

GC

[Glitch]

Like I said you would not like it if a Christian was trying to change your mind, so why do this to her.

GC

She's taken it upon herself to use friends as sources as information in previous discussions. I have no problem with it, nor should she. I respect her privacy and have no revealed any personal information.

Her: If you have questions about the Bible, I'd recommend talking to a reliable pastor. They're very helpful and knowledgeable.

Me: I'd much rather speak to a historian. Pastors are usually not qualified to speak about the history of the book. In the conversations I have had, statements made are subjective. More often than not, unsubstantiated. The stories found in the bible had been passed down by word of mouth for centuries. Upon translation over the next several thousand years, meaning is lost. For example, godisnowhere could be “God is now here” or “God is nowhere.”

Her: Unfortunately, your information is incorrect. The words of the prophets and apostles were always written down - not necessarily by word of mouth. The deep sea scrolls show that what was translated previously was correctly written in English.

Me: Where did you obtain that information? Is the source secular, or religious?

(long delay in response)

Her: Sorry... A little busy baking cookies. that was from my friend, Who learned that in history class.

Me: I had thought the writing differed from your own. I suppose we could discuss these things some other time, it is Christmas tomorrow after all. The wonderful pagan holiday that our culture has adopted. So many great traditions. The history is actually rather cool, its derived from so many different cultures. So many small parts to form the holiday as a whole.

[Nope]

Find out what emotional need that religion is filling for her. Most intelligent religious people remain in their faith because they are getting some need met. This can be as simple as knowing that you will meet your loved ones after death. Ask her what her religion gives her. You might have to dig a bit to get through a lot of religious woo to get the real answer.

Also, point her in the way of more liberal religious people. You might never deconvert her but there are Christians who believe in evolution and same sex marriage. They have just as many bible verses to support their love of science and equality as the right wing Christians do.


Find out if she has actually read her bible from front to cover. You can challenge her to do so. After all, if someone is going to follow a religion shouldn't they read the holy text of that faith? Most people will be repulsed at large portions of the Old Testament. You can remind her that bible god doesn't change so the same god that commands people to stone rape victims was the same god in the New Testament. I have heard several atheists say that reading the bible was the catalyst for losing their faith.

[Elskidor]

I wish you the best, but I can't say I have had anything good come out of debating with friends or family over religion. It is usually just messy or awkward, but then again I don't much care for discussing stuff like that anyway, but I know some people do. I just find debating sorta pointless. No matter how many points you think are great, the other side is going to think the same thing about theirs.

My brother-in-law and I talked about beliefs on Chrismas Eve for awhile, but he started it with a comment of "I don't care for Atheists much. " He's a pagan, so in the end we pretty much just agreed on not liking Christianity. He had assumed a lot of stuff that just was not accurate, and had painted atheists with some pretty broad strokes. I think we could have had a better time not discussing our differences at all, but it was civil and turned out okay.

[Glitch]

Find out what emotional need that religion is filling for her. Most intelligent religious people remain in their faith because they are getting some need met. This can be as simple as knowing that you will meet your loved ones after death. Ask her what her religion gives her. You might have to dig a bit to get through a lot of religious woo to get the real answer.

Also, point her in the way of more liberal religious people. You might never deconvert her but there are Christians who believe in evolution and same sex marriage. They have just as many bible verses to support their love of science and equality as the right wing Christians do.

Find out if she has actually read her bible from front to cover. You can challenge her to do so. After all, if someone is going to follow a religion shouldn't they read the holy text of that faith? Most people will be repulsed at large portions of the Old Testament. You can remind her that bible god doesn't change so the same god that commands people to stone rape victims was the same god in the New Testament. I have heard several atheists say that reading the bible was the catalyst for losing their faith.

Get to know her beliefs at a personal level, I wholeheartedly agree. Even if she never changes her mind, at least I could empathize as to why she clings to them so dearly. Wonderful suggestion, thank you.

I am happy that she's in favor of same sex marriage, I've seen her happy when she comes across those couples. I think that science and religion can be reconciled; although strenuously, but that'll at least bring her closer to an observable reality. I'm sure there are ways to make even the story of adam and eve sound abstract or metaphorical to her.

I've spoken to her about it before. It seems that she obtains most of that information from sermons, friends, and family. She's never read the bible from cover to cover, so I'll introduce her to cherry picking. I will even acknowledge that the bible has its good moments too. Otherwise I'm hypocritical for picking out all the bad stuff. I can show her new versus over time. Fantastic approach to opening her mind a bit.

I wish you the best, but I can't say I have had anything good come out of debating with friends or family over religion. It is usually just messy or awkward, but then again I don't much care for discussing stuff like that anyway, but I know some people do. I just find debating sorta pointless. No matter how many points you think are great, the other side is going to think the same thing about theirs.

My brother-in-law and I talked about beliefs on Chrismas Eve for awhile, but he started it with a comment of "I don't care for Atheists much. " He's a pagan, so in the end we pretty much just agreed on not liking Christianity. He had assumed a lot of stuff that just was not accurate, and had painted atheists with some pretty broad strokes. I think we could have had a better time not discussing our differences at all, but it was civil and turned out okay.

I know the feeling. She's still young, just entered college. I want her to live up to her utmost potential. It may be futile, but it's certainly worth an attempt. Brief discussions over an extended period of time may work very well.

I'm sure that, in time, with a progressive form of atheism, (Not the extreme anti-theistic approaches.) we may be able to dilute those misconceptions. In some countries if you tell someone you're an atheist they'll respond indifferently. It's common place. I admire what Bill Nye is doing, he's approaching the scientific illiteracy, not the religion in itself.

Its good that you found some common ground. Perhaps, in time you'll be able to discuss things freely with one another? Its certainly better than what I can say with those experiences. My Aunt is far deeper in than my cousin...didn't go well. xD