Indoctrination & Mental Gymnastics

[robvalue]

Saved from what again? His threat of eternal torture? Sounds more like blackmail to me.

[Lek]

Saved from what again? His threat of eternal torture? Sounds more like blackmail to me.

If God liked to torture us why would he sacrifice himself for us so that we could avoid punishment?

[robvalue]

If he didn't want to torture us, he could just not torture us. Who is demanding he torture anyone? There was nothing to be saved from until he started threatening us. And he didn't sacrifice anything, he moved a bit of himself around a little bit, then back again. Doesn't sound like a lot of effort for a being of infinite power.

If he's gonna torture me for using my brain, and assessing evidence, then he sucks.

[dyresand]

Saved from what again? His threat of eternal torture? Sounds more like blackmail to me.

If God liked to torture us why would he sacrifice himself for us so that we could avoid punishment?

He likes torture why would he create hell then. Also god dying for himself to please himself didn't make him less angry and vengeful.

[Full Circle]

Refuse to seek out your god, you mean. Why would they do that when they have been indoctrinated by the exact same logic to worship another god? And if they are in a dictatorship, they may well have no opportunity to even become aware of other religions. God gonna roast them?

It's all arbitrary of course, people have all different ideas and are just making it up based on their favourite verses.

There is only one God, but we have different concepts of who he is. If someone is seeking God, they are searching for that one God. They could have never heard the name of Jesus, but still be in touch with God. They are reliant on God for the revelation that they receive from him. Coming to God is a process and we're all in different stages of that process.

Nope, that’s not what your religion says, it is very clear:

John 14:16
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…

There is no wiggle room. According to your scriptures no one who doesn’t know Jesus will be with God.

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Saved from what again? His threat of eternal torture? Sounds more like blackmail to me.

If God liked to torture us why would he sacrifice himself for us so that we could avoid punishment?

Vicarious redemption is an extension of the Middle Eastern tradition of scapegoating. A convenient way of making believe your misdeeds/sins have been taken away. This is an ancient tradition that predates Christianity and someone had the bright idea of trading in a goat for a man-god. Remember that these traditions were concocted by people who shat in their own water supply.

[Lek]

Nope, that’s not what your religion says, it is very clear:

John 14:16
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…

There is no wiggle room. According to your scriptures no one who doesn’t know Jesus will be with God.

Read post #80 for my thoughts on this. He is the only way.

Vicarious redemption is an extension of the Middle Eastern tradition of scapegoating. A convenient way of making believe your misdeeds/sins have been taken away. This is an ancient tradition that predates Christianity and someone had the bright idea of trading in a goat for a man-god. Remember that these traditions were concocted by people who shat in their own water supply.

It's not an extension of any tradition. It's about us screwing up and God making it right for us. That's the message of the bible, which is what christians follow. We take responsibility for our own actions.

[Full Circle]

[Lek]

Your thoughts are not scripture, you either believe the scripture or you don’t, you don’t get to change it because you don’t like it.

You're right that my thoughts are not scripture and neither are yours. How do my thoughts in post #80 conflict with Jesus being the only way to salvation? I was speaking of an individual who had never heard the name "Jesus" being saved through him.

Yes, it is the extension of tradition from long before Chrsitianity, it is a belief co-opted and woven into the dogma. Read the history for scapegoating, here are a few links to make it easy:

“Ancient Syria:
A concept superficially similar to the biblical scapegoat is attested in two ritual texts in archives at Ebla of the 24th century BC. They were connected with ritual purification on the occasion of the king's wedding. In them, a she-goat with a silver bracelet hung from her neck was driven forth into the wasteland of "Alini"; "we" in the report of the ritual involves the whole community. Such “elimination rites", in which an animal, without confession of sins, is the vehicle of evils (not sins) that are chased from the community are widely attested in the Ancient Near East.”

You are saying that because there was an example of scapegoating in ancient Syria, that Jesus' saving act was a myth based on this example? This may be your opinion or even the opinion of some scholars, but it's not even close to justifying your conclusion. I don't doubt that other cultures had beliefs involving the same concept. That's like saying that some society in the past had a certain custom and, because we have a similar custom today, that our custom is derived from that society.

Non sequitor

Okay. I take responsibility for my own actions.

[goodwithoutgod]

[Full Circle]

In the referenced post you write

No. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if one seeks God with a true heart, and responds to the light God provides him, he will find him. All who are saved are saved through Jesus Christ. I could know I'm a sinner in need of God's forgiveness, and never have heard the name Jesus, but still believe in Jesus in essence.

The reason Christian’s have been sending missionaries out into the world since the apostles is to “bring the good word” and save souls. No Jesus = no salvation.

I suppose I pick on Christianity more than the other religions because I was brought up in it. If I knew more about Islam, Judaism and Hinduism I’m sure I would lambaste them more so forgive me for showing any favoritism.

I’ve been traveling a lot lately; I spent nearly a month in Indonesia (most populous Islamic country in the world, the one exception within the country is the island of Bali which is mostly Hindu) and even more recently traveled to Colombia as well. On both trips I have taken many photographs of children and that brings me to this discussion about who is saved and gets to go to Heaven and who isn’t and goes to Hell.

In the Bible it says, “the only way to the Father is through Me” (John 14:16 as I already quoted). Most everyone I talk to takes this to mean that unless you know of Jesus and have accepted Him in your mind as TOTG (The One True God) you’re SOOL (Shit Out Of Luck). I think this applies to Islam as well but they replace JC with Muhammad (as prophet only and not TSOG, The Son of God). The Jews just skip the middle-man altogether and go straight to the Source until the day they are convinced the real Messiah shows up through the proper gate this time bearing favorable rates or something like that.

Back to the children and my original thought; so JC shows up in one little town and roams around the countryside laying down the law. This law is to be applied to everyone evenly from here on out (what happened to all the humans who preceded Him is another story). There is no internet, cell phones, TV, mail, loudspeakers or the like so it takes many generations for the Word to get around and reach some of the now seven billion plus people in the world. I use the word “some” because I can assure you that most of these kids I have been photographing in far-flung islands and deep jungle don’t have a clue what the hell we’re talking about (cue the missionaries).

What happened or happens to all the people who didn’t get the memo?

Like
1) Those that came before the memo was issued
2) those that were contemporaries but didn’t live within a couple of donkey rides from the memo writer
3) those that came after but never got the memo
4) those that got the memo at the point of a sword
5) those that got a garbled memo and couldn’t make heads or tails of it
6) those that got the memo but thought it was a joke
7) those that had already received previous memos that conflict with the new one and
8) those that were/are not capable of deciphering or understanding the memo.

If I am to believe what the Bible says there are a lot of people, including these children I have been photographing, that are going to Hell. Personally, I just don’t buy it.

Whoever has been tweaking this memorandum all these years has yet to tie up all the loose ends to this fanciful tale. There are just so many holes in it that if people weren’t so superstitious or scared they would file this one away in the drama/fiction/horror heading at Barnes & Noble bookstore and give it no more weight than a second rate novel.

You’re right that my thoughts are not scripture and neither are yours.

Show me where I claimed they were.

You are saying that because there was an example of scapegoating in ancient Syria, that Jesus' saving act was a myth based on this example? This may be your opinion or even the opinion of some scholars, but it's not even close to justifying your conclusion. I don't doubt that other cultures had beliefs involving the same concept. That’s like saying that some society in the past had a certain custom and, because we have a similar custom today, that our custom is derived from that society.

lek, you wrote this about scapegoating, and I quote again, “It’s not an extension of any tradition.” I gave you links showing that there was, indeed, a long tradition of the practice. This is a fact not an opinion.

As for the inference that the Jesus myth of vicarious redemption is a co-opting of an existing, ancient practice, yes that is what I think based on historical scholarly work from the likes of Dr. Richard Carrier for one.