Rational defense of Christianity?

[vorlon13]

World's Dumbest Competitions #5 aired a segment of cobra handlers in India actually inviting the deadly serpents to bite them. The 'winner' of the spectacle is the one who remains conscious the longest.

As noted in the TV show, despite numerous participants, and many, many serpent bites,


NO ONE DIED.


I'm resolving this year, that I'm no longer going to be snarky in challenging Jesus' deadly serpent demonstrations amongst his followers, I'm dead serious about it now. I've seen it. I want to see believers in this country coming here with proof just as convincing.

I'm petitioning the mods here to consider only allowing christian posters here that have risen to the challenge and proven their credentials via surviving bites from deadly serpents.

[Mudhammam]

Using you own circular reasoning, he knew that before setting up the experiment. You guys are always stressing he's omniscient after all. So it was all for the heck of it.

Do you know what happens to a monarch butterfly if you cut him free of his cocoon rather than allowing him to struggle through it himself? Without the resistance the cocoon offers his wings never fully develop as he forces himself though the cocoon fluid is forced through the capillaries in his wings allowing the to expand. Without this struggle the butterfly never fully develops.

Evil/evil people are the 'cocoon' to Christianity's butterfly. They provide the evil nessary to develop the character and tests/proofing needed for one to be ready for eternal service to God.

That is why I say satan is not God's arch enemy. He is a servant (reluctant) but still yet serves a purpose in this life, as per the book of Job.

It strikes me as highly ironic that on Christianity, the greatest good can only be attained---in status and recognition---through the creation of the greatest evil. Yet one can easily imagine, to the detriment of Christian theology, degrees of goodness not marked by any degrees of pure evil. Our only conclusion must be that Yahweh represents extreme confusion, struggle, and despair, and given the testimonies of countless saints, this appears to be precisely the sentiment they've allowed themselves to be devoured by too.

[Drich]

It strikes me as highly ironic that on Christianity, the greatest good can only be attained---in status and recognition---through the creation of the greatest evil. Yet one can easily imagine, to the detriment of Christian theology, degrees of goodness not marked by any degrees of pure evil. Our only conclusion must be that Yahweh represents extreme confusion, struggle, and despair, and given the testimonies of countless saints, this appears to be precisely the sentiment they've allowed themselves to be devoured by too.

Evil in this case has nothing to do with goodness.

Here evil as per the life of job has to do with causing the resistance needed to challenge force us to a point where an honest decision can be made about eternal service to God.

In the parable of the wise and foolish builders evil in the wind and rain that proofs the house we built and its foundations.

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Is shonuff the cats name?

[abaris]

Evil in this case has nothing to do with goodness.

Here evil as per the life of job has to do with causing the resistance needed to challenge force us to a point where an honest decision can be made about eternal service to God.

In the parable of the wise and foolish builders evil in the wind and rain that proofs the house we built and its foundations.

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Is shonuff the cats name?

Wow, nice sermon.

Isn't Job the guy, who lost everything because of a fucking wager between god and Satan? Yeah, I know, he was rewarded tenfold after the fact, but his family members were still goners.

Not the most inspiring example, I would say.

[Mudhammam]

Evil in this case has nothing to do with goodness.

Here evil as per the life of job has to do with causing the resistance needed to challenge force us to a point where an honest decision can be made about eternal service to God.

In the parable of the wise and foolish builders evil in the wind and rain that proofs the house we built and its foundations.

"An honest decision." HA! As in the tale of Job, where his superstition was spurred on by the most grievous and turbulent circumstances that could ravish a person's intellectual and emotional well-being. That's always a good place to make objective judgments.

[vorlon13]

Side note:

The bible doesn't even get the sand foundations part right either.

Lake Pontchartrain Causeway is entirely secured in sand and does just fine (or at least the piers, LOL!) in hurricanes, or 'tempests' as the christer set calls them.

Is that bridge 'of the devil' or does god not know 'nuthin' bout buildin' on sand ??

[fr0d0]

To clarify, the factual errors that bother me relate to the historical narratives - not science. The nativity stories in the gospels are a good example (since we just finished Christmas). I'm sure somebody could list hundreds of these types of factual errors. In other words, the factual errors problem is bigger than Noah's ark and affects the NT as well as the OT.

Also, your point about science always changing leads me to ask why Christianity and the Bible shouldn't be always changing too. Biblical inerrancy works against this.

I'm waiting for a book to come out on the flood story to put that one to bed. I'm sure it will. Primarily I look at the whole thing in relation to it's subject matter. If the Bible claimed to be foremost a perfect historical account then it'd be an open and shut case. And I know there are those who will claim absolute historical accuracy. I think the argument is locked with those two factions. Sensible understanding lies elsewhere.

Why I accept inerrancy with the condition that it could possibly change is for that very reason. Religious expression keeps digging away for better answers... It just hasn't found any for 2000 years. Or perhaps it has and I'm unaware of it. We seem to be reinventing the wheel, or rediscovering it. Atheism is another struggle to understand purpose from that same mold (UK meaning :p).

[Mudhammam]

Religious expression keeps digging away for better answers... It just hasn't found any for 2000 years. Or perhaps it has and I'm unaware of it.

No, you're quite right, it has not found any better answers since it invented the halls of Olympus.

[Drich]

The only thing I'm going to serve him is a three course ass whoopin'. If he ever has the balls to show up and face me. I'm not waiting around, I got stuff to do.

I don't know how I missed this, but this was the way I felt before I got to see Hell. Let's just hope when you get to see it there is a return trip planned for you as with me.

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God allowed the same thing with satan.

But was Satan presented with a "tree" of his own, or was he granted knowledge of good and evil in some other manner?

Appearently He does not want sentient beings serving Him, that if given a choice would not serve Him.

I think that opens up a whole different can of worms. Apparently he has created a universe of sentient beings that generally prefer to go it without him. Doesn't that seem like a planned outcome?

As per gen 3 beings of heaven have full knoweledge of Good and evil, so Satan was created with this knoweledge.

How do you figure that most don't want to be with Him? If you look at the history of the world the vast majority of us have indeed worship or tried to worship Some sort of God. The only think the mucks that up is with true sentience people get to make their own choices.

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Evil in this case has nothing to do with goodness.

Here evil as per the life of job has to do with causing the resistance needed to challenge force us to a point where an honest decision can be made about eternal service to God.

In the parable of the wise and foolish builders evil in the wind and rain that proofs the house we built and its foundations.

---

Is shonuff the cats name?

Wow, nice sermon.

Isn't Job the guy, who lost everything because of a fucking wager between god and Satan? Yeah, I know, he was rewarded tenfold after the fact, but his family members were still goners.

Not the most inspiring example, I would say.

It always amazes me that you all blame the loss of Job on God. God simply removed the "shield" he had over Job's life. Satan was given the oppertunity to win favor any way he wanted. Rather than wine and dine Job he destroyed his life. So please explain to me why it is that God gets the blame in your mind when it was the hand of satan that did the misdeeds?

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Evil in this case has nothing to do with goodness.

Here evil as per the life of job has to do with causing the resistance needed to challenge force us to a point where an honest decision can be made about eternal service to God.

In the parable of the wise and foolish builders evil in the wind and rain that proofs the house we built and its foundations.

"An honest decision." HA! As in the tale of Job, where his superstition was spurred on by the most grievous and turbulent circumstances that could ravish a person's intellectual and emotional well-being. That's always a good place to make objective judgments.

See the above