reasons to believe, there is no God

[Darwinian]

So that leaves us with the questions, where did God come from and how old is he?

[Tsidkenu]

hello

what is in your opinion the best explanation for our existence ? Or : why is there something, rather than nothing ?
If you do not believe in God as the best explanation for our existence, what other ( better ) explanation do you suggest ?

How about abiogenesis and evolution.

Abiogenesis - a reasonable answer to explain how live arise on earth ?

It was believed that the results were significant because some of the organic compounds produced were the building blocks of much more complex life units called proteins—the basic structure of all life.30 Although widely heralded by the press as ‘proving’ that life could have originated on the early earth under natural conditions (i.e. without intelligence), we now realize the experiment actually provided compelling evidence for exactly the opposite conclusion. For example, without all 20 amino acids as a set, most known protein types cannot be produced, and this critical step in abiogenesis could never have occurred.
In addition, equal quantities of both right- and left-handed organic molecules (called a racemic mixture) were consistently produced by the Miller–Urey procedure. In life, nearly all amino acids that can be used in proteins must be left-handed, and almost all carbohydrates and polymers must be right-handed. The opposite types are not only useless but can also be toxic (even lethal) to life.31,32

evolution :

there are so many problems with this theory, i don't know even where to begin with.

The Odds of Evolution Occurring by Chance

"At one time living cells were considered no more complex than empty ping pong balls. As biochemists have learned more about the complexity of life, it has become increasingly apparent that thousands of specific and complex chemicals are required for any form of life to survive.

Evolutionist Harold Morowitz estimated the probability for chance formation of even the simplest form of living organism at 1/10340,000,000. By comparison only 1020 grains of sand could fit within a cubic mile and 10 billion times more (1030) would fit inside the entire earth. So, the probability of forming a simple cell by chance processes is infinitely less likely than having a blind person select one specifically marked grain of sand out of an entire earth filled with sand.

There is nowhere near enough time nor matter in the entire universe for even the simplest cell to have formed by chance combinations. Even if all the correct chemicals somehow came together in the correct place, you still wouldn't have life. This is exactly the situation every time a living organism dies. Immediately after death, all the right chemicals exist, in the right proportions, and in the right place -- yet the creature is still dead!

Five billion years is nowhere near long enough for evolution to have taken place. In reality, all of eternity would not provide enough time for random processes to form the enormous complexity of life."

"Page" July 17th

"The simplest conceivable form of life (eg. bacteria) contains at least 600 different protein molecules. Each of these molecules performs specific functions by fitting into other molecules shaped in exact three-dimensional spatial arrangements. These proteins work like a key fitting into a lock -- only a specifically shaped protein will fit. Yet there are multiple trillions of possible combinations of protein molecules and shapes. How could the exactly required shape find the exactly correct corresponding protein in order to perform the required cellular function?

"The mathematical probability that the precisely designed molecules needed for the 'simplest' bacteria could form by chance arrangement of amino acids (these are the chemicals that link up to form proteins) is far less than 1 in 10450. Most scientists acknowledge that any possibility less than one in 1050 is considered an impossibility. One wonders why this 'impossibility' is being taught as a 'fact of science' to millions of school children each year."

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So that leaves us with the questions, where did God come from and how old is he?

If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.

Consider the universe. Scientists once held to the "steady-state" theory, that the universe has always existed without beginning.

Cosmological evidence now refers to the "Big bang" as the point in time that the universe came into being. Our space-time-matter-energy universe had a distinct and singular beginning.

Since it did not always exist, but came into existence (had a singular beginning), then some other reality must have caused or created it.1

Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. God however is in a different category, and must be so. God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent. And this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be. Why must God be this way?

Our universe cannot be explained any other way. It could not have created itself. It has not always existed. And it could not be created by something that itself is created. Why not?

It isn't coherent to argue that the universe was created by God, but God was in turn created by God to the second power, who was in turn created by God to the third power, and so on. As Aristotle cogently argued, there must be a reality that causes but is itself uncaused (or, a being that moves but is itself unmoved). Why? Because if there is an infinite regression of causes, then by definition the whole process could never begin.2

[LEDO]

What we call "the universe" with its various properties came into being at the point of the "big bang" or expansion. However it is incorrect to assume nothing existed before that. It was a point of singularity which existed. The entropy for that point was infinity for an item that size. Time did not exist prior to the Big Bang as there was no way to measure it. Also there is no frame of reference in quantum physics for anythig outside of that point, i.e. there is no place that "God" could exist.

[Darwinian]

this forum has the goal to organize and unite information and compelling evidence for the existence of the God of the bible - from your forum

What this site is doing is to start with a theory and then try an prove it true. If facts come along and disprove that theory then it's the facts that have to be thrown out or changed but not the theory.

This is a ridiculous method of finding answers to the mystery's of the universe and if this or sites like this are going to be your 'evidence' or source of information then you've come to the wrong place.

[Thor]

Abiogenesis - a reasonable answer to explain how live arise on earth ?

Yes, very reasonable. Let's compare the two theories.

Abiogenesis: A scientific theory that postulates how living organisms could have arisen from inanimate matter.

Your theory: An invisible being created the universe and everything in it with a wave of his hand.

Which sounds reasonable and which sounds like something you'd tell a three year old?

there are so many problems with this theory, i don't know even where to begin with.

Gee... since there are "so many problems with it", the theory should be easy to falsify. Why don't you do so and collect that Nobel Prize?

The Odds of Evolution Occurring by Chance

Oh, dear. You want to run with "chance" argument? Like evolution was some kind of roll of the dice? Evolution is the exact OPPOSITE of chance. Study the theory and you might understand this.

[Tsidkenu]

What we call "the universe" with its various properties came into being at the point of the "big bang" or expansion. However it is incorrect to assume nothing existed before that. It was a point of singularity which existed. The entropy for that point was infinity for an item that size. Time did not exist prior to the Big Bang as there was no way to measure it. Also there is no frame of reference in quantum physics for anythig outside of that point, i.e. there is no place that "God" could exist.

Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing.


"The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago." Stephen Hawking The Beginning of Time
"Scientists generally agree that "the Big Bang" birthed the universe about 15 billion years ago." Tom Parisi, Northern Illinois University
"As a result of the Big Bang (the tremendous explosion which marked the beginning of our Universe), the universe is expanding and most of the galaxies within it are moving away from each other." CalTech
"The Big Bang model of the universe's birth is the most widely accepted model that has ever been conceived for the scientific origin of everything." Stuart Robbins, Case Western Reserve University
"Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however, no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning." Chris LaRocco and Blair Rothstein, University of Michigan
"The scientific evidence is now overwhelming that the Universe began with a "Big Bang" ~15 billion (15,000,000,000 or 15E9) years ago." "The Big Bang theory is the most widely accepted theory of the creation of the Universe." Dr. van der Pluijm, University of Michigan
"The present location and velocities of galaxies are a result of a primordial blast known as the BIG BANG. It marked: THE BEGINNING OF THE UNIVERSE! THE BEGINNING OF TIME!" Terry Herter, Cornell University
"That radiation is residual heat from the Big Bang, the event that sparked the beginning of the universe some 13 billion years ago." Craig Hogan, University of Washington
"Most scientists agree that the universe began some 12 to 20 billion years ago in what has come to be known as the Big Bang (a term coined by the English astrophysicist Fred Hoyle in 1950." University of Illinois
"The universe cannot be infinitely large or infinitely old (it evolves in time)." Nilakshi Veerabathina, Georgia State University ()
"The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something." Janna Levin, Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University
"Today scientists generally believe the universe was created in a violent explosion called the Big Bang." Susan Terebey, Department of Physics and Astronomy, California State University Los Angeles
"Evidence suggests that our universe began as an incredibly hot and dense region referred to as a singularity." Stephen T. Abedon, Ohio State University
"A large body of astrophysical observations now clearly points to a beginning for our universe about 15 billion years ago in a cataclysmic outpouring of elementary particles. There is, in fact, no evidence that any of the particles of matter with which we are now familiar existed before this great event." Louis J. Clavelli, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Alabama
"Now, after decades of observing and thinking, we have come to answer confidently the question of the origin of our universe... with what is known as the "big bang"." Yuki D. Takahashi, Caltech
"The theory is the conceptual and the calculational tool used by particle physicists to describe the structure of the hadrons and the beginning of the universe." Keh-Fei Liu, University of Kentucky.
"The three-part lecture series includes: "How the Universe Began," "The Dark Side of the Universe: Dark Matter and Dark Energy" and "Cosmic Inflation: The Dynamite Behind the Big Bang?" (Lectures by Michael S. Turner, Bruce V. and Diana M. Rauner at Penn State University)
"Travel back in time to the beginning of the Universe: The Big Bang" Douglas Miller, University of Arizona
"Beginning of the Universe 20.0 billion yr ago" Charly Mallery, University of Miami
"At the beginning the universe was extremely hot and dense (more about this later) and as it expanded it cooled." Syracuse University
"THE UNIVERSE AND ALL OF SPACE ARE EXPANDING FROM A BIG BANG BEGINNING" Center for Cosmological Physics, University of Chicago
"Gamow realized that at a point a few minutes after its beginning, the universe would behave as a giant nuclear reactor." Valparaiso University, Department of Physics and Astronomy
"I'll also include what the time is since the creation of the Universe, and an estimate of the temperature of the Universe at each point." Siobahn M. Morgan, University of Northern Iowa.
"The Universe is thought to have formed between 6-20 billion years ago (Ga) as a result of the "Big Bang" Kevin P. Hefferan, University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point
"The dominant idea of Cosmology is that the Universe had a beginning." Adam Frank, University of Rochester Department of Physics & Astronomy
"The hot dense phase is generally regarded as the beginning of the universe, and the time since the beginning is, by definition, the age of the universe." Harrison B. Prosper, Florida State University
"One of the major hypotheses on which modern cosmology is based is that the Universe originated in an explosion called the Big Bang, in which all energy (and matter) that exists today was created." Eric S. Rowland, UC Santa Cruz
"Together with Roger Penrose, I developed a new set of mathematical techniques, for dealing with this and similar problems. We showed that if General Relativity was correct, any reasonable model of the universe must start with a singularity. This would mean that science could predict that the universe must have had a beginning, but that it could not predict how the universe should begin: for that one would have to appeal to God." Stephen W. Hawking "Origin of the Universe" lecture

And how do you explain the amazingly finely tuned universe to life ?

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What this site is doing is to start with a theory and then try an prove it true.

No, my forum does not try to PROVE anything.

[Darwinian]

Then as you own your own forum you will understand and respect that forums have rules. Although ours are not being displayed at the moment I would ask that you don't post any links until you have reached at least 10 posts and you don't cut/copy large sections of text from external sites and paste them here.

[Tiberius]

To see the absurdity and contradictions of an actual infinite number of things in the real world imagine or hypothesize your campus library having an infinite number of black books and an infinite number of green books, alternating colours on the shelves and numbered consecutively on the spines.

Does it make any sense to say that there are as many black books as there are black plus green books together? But that is what you would have to say if you want to claim the infinite is possible in the real world.

Yes, it makes perfect sense in a mathematical model. See Hilbert's Hotel for more explanation.

Suppose you withdrew all the green books. How many books are there left in the library? There would still be an infinite number of books in the library even though we just withdrew an infinite number and found a way to get them home!

Yes, because you've already said there were an infinite amount of green books and red books. Nothing has gone against mathematics yet.

Suppose you withdrew the books numbered 4,5,6...and so on. Now how many books are left? THREE! Something surely is wrong here! One time we subtract an infinite number of books and we're left with an infinite number; the next time we subtract an infinite number and we're left with three - a clear logical contradiction.

It isn't a logical contradiction. You had two lots of infinitely many books. You removed all of one type, leaving you with infinitely many of the other type. You had two lots of infinitely many books again, but this time you removed all of one type, and all but three of the other type, leaving you with three. You are removing different amounts each time...of course you will get different results. Perhaps you should look up the concept of "countably infinite" things.

Since our hypothesis leads to a contradiction, the hypothesis must be false - a library with an actual infinite number of books cannot exist.

I don't think anyone was arguing the library could exist in reality, but it can still exist in mathematics perfectly fine. It doesn't exist in the real world because we don't have an infinite amount of space, not because there is something contradictory about infinity.

Therefore, since a beginningless past would be an actual infinite number of things (events) and since an actual infinite number of things cannot exist in the real world, it follows logically that the past is not infinite. The universe had a beginning.

Yes, the universe had a beginning, but this does not necessarily mean the universe hasn't always existed. It "began" in the sense that it "expanded" (Big Bang), but before the Big Bang, it is theorised that time did not exist, ergo there cannot be any cause and effect (because that requires time) and so the universe was a in a state of existence but with no time.

[Xyster]

Thnx Adrian for picking up that mess.. Today im tired and did not feel like going over the flaws in that argument.

[Zen Badger]

And how do you explain the amazingly finely tuned universe to life ?

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Because Life has evolved to fit the universe.

Not the other way round.