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New Ager to Christian to Atheist
#11
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 2:51 am)Godschild Wrote: So, after the trip and 18 years it all came down to going to hell, you dumped Christianity over your fear of hell,

Not even close. The doctrine of hell was ONE of the things that i found myself wrestling with. Like I said, it's the Cliff's Notes version of the story.

You're welcome to ask questions about my journey, but please don't leap to unfounded conclusions.

Quote:...why not the great and loving relationship with the Creator of the universe, that's a relationship that can't be had any other way except through Christ, wasn't this important...

Yes, it was. In fact, part of my journey was the rather unsettling discovery that this "relationship" can be and is found in other religions. In my travels, I had the opportunity to have long, searching conversations with Muslims, Pagans, Orthodox Jews and others - and their stories of the transcendent love of their respective deities were identical to the stories Christians tell.

Because I love to read and to learn, I eventually became fascinated with studies about how our brains work. It seems that there is an area in our brain which, if stimulated, causes ~70% of people to have a "religious experience." Add to this the dopamine rush we get from group activities (like singing or prayer), and you're a long ways towards explaining that apparently "supernatural" love.

Quote:You never stated why God told you to go to Israel and it seems that you ran from that mission, if it was one, because you got scared and lost trust in the God that supposedly sent you there.
That's quite a leap. It's also completely inaccurate. Cliff's Notes, remember? 35 years doesn't compress easily.

Quote:It seems to me that middle Tennessee was a destination you picked, why, because you never said God told you to leave Israel.
Again, Cliff's Notes. "God" told me to move to Nashville. And it's a good thing too, because I might never have come down off that acid trip if i had stayed among intelligent, well-educated Christian scholars in Israel. People there actually admitted that I was asking tough questions, instead of trying to shut me down.

Quote:Your story is curious at best and not very believable at worst, not in the sense it didn't happen, but in the sense that you might have never been a Christian.

I wondered how long it would be until someone said that. It's what I used to believe as a Christian, too. Even though the scriptures clearly teach otherwise, the Church says you can't be "truly saved' and then walk away. Why? Because they fear ex-Christians far more than simple heathens.

Quote:You tell me, how is it that one can come to actually know God and then deny His existence,
Read your Bible. The end of Luke chapter 9, for example. Or the Pauline Epistles, specifically where he talks about those who have tasted the fruits of the kingdom and turned away. (I'd give you chapter and verse, but BibleGateway has made searching a lot harder recently).

The Bible teaches that True BelieversTM can and do turn from "god." In fact, the people who selected and edited the books of the Bible were extremely clever, making certain to include lots of passages warning the faithful against former believers who dare to use rational thought to probe irrational doctrine.

Quote:You should have come to East Tennessee and talked with my pastor who studies the scriptures from the Greek. This is another reason I find your story hard to believe, God wouldn't send you to a place where there was no one to teach you, He doesn't work that way.

Did you actually read my story? I speak Hebrew, dude! I studied Biblical Hebrew as well, and spent years among some of the foremost Biblical scholars in the world! I also learned how to study the scriptures from the Greek. There were dozens of people to teach me, and to answer - and honestly wrestle with - my questions.

I lived in Jerusalem, and deliberately sought out teachers and scholars. Ones who were actually educated, not semi-literate backwoods pastors who studied Koine Greek in Podunk for a semester and think they can translate from the original.

I walked on streets where Jesus supposedly walked. I explored the archaeological layers beneath the streets of Jerusalem. I traveled the country for 7 years, and asked hard, probing questions of Biblical Archaeologists at digs in the Galil as well as the Negev. I was surrounded by teachers!

Ever heard of Origen? Justin Martyr? Polycarp? Clement of Rome? Augustine? Whatever you do, don't read what they had to say. You won't like it. Actually studying the first-century context of the New Testament is the last thing anyone should do if they want to remain a Christian. Don't examine the Books too closely, because (like any fantasy story) they don't hold together well under scrutiny.
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#12
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
Quote:But there were problems. For one thing, I kept hearing pastors using completely wrong translations of the Hebrew Bible. Not just off by a little bit, but totally off-base interpretations that made no sense at all.
Which translation did they use and which one did you?

Quote:At the same time, I was having problems with Christian doctrine. Hell, for example – why would a loving God condemn the vast majority of His children to eternal torment?
You have to understand 'christian' doctrine is not the same as what the bible says on a lot of different topics. for example: The bible never makes the claim God is Omni-benevolent/ALL Loving. Matter of fact the bible says there are those in whom God Hates. It is a short list but never the less it is there.

The second issue is that "Hell" according to the bible is eternal torment for Satan. Meaning Satan is the only one the bible tells us that will burn in Hell forever. The rest of us are eventually consumed by the Hell fire. That is why so many time Christ refers to "Destruction in Hell" or the 2nd Death.

Quote:Especially when the only thing they had really done was to be born in the “wrong” culture, to the “wrong” parents.
That's a myth. Being born to a specific brand of 'Christianity' seems to make it harder to find Jesus than being born outside the faith. Because more often than not kids growing up serving the faith of their fathers rather than the God of the bible.

Quote: Or the Trinity, which is nowhere in Scripture.
Agreed, it is simply a doctrine that describes/sums up the mentionings of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Quote:Or the fact that, by taking a strong Republican political stance, the Evangelical Church is needlessly alienating half the country.
no idea what this means in relation to scripture.

Quote:And I kept on studying. And discovered that eternal torment was not accepted by many of the Church Fathers.
Because it is not supported in the scriptures.

Quote:And that the RCC had gone so far as to insert passages into the Gospels to support the Trinity.
They insert a lot of stuff into the bible. Hence the difference between a religious understanding and one that is biblically based. (This is what I mean by faith of their fathers and why it is so hard for a kid born into the church to find The God of the Bible)

Quote: And that numerous Biblical stories appear to be retellings of earlier stories, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. And the more I learned, the more questions I had for my pastors.
Why can't these (The bible and the 11th tablet of the epic of Gilga) be confirming one actual event?

Quote:I got kicked out of a few churches for asking these questions.
Welcome to the club. I took 1 thess 5:21 to heart and questioned EVERYTHING. not just the questionable but the foundational as well. Those who simply wish to tow the line of their Father's religions don't like those type of questions.

Quote: Well, really for rejecting the answers, which were at odds with empirical textual evidence. When I showed my sources to pastors, they tended to get red-faced and tell me I should submit to my elders.
When I was told that I suggested that the elders 'submit to the written word of God.'
Big Grin

Quote:Then one day at a church picnic, I had a sudden epiphany. All the information I had made perfect sense if I accepted one simple concept: There is no God, it’s just a bunch of stories that help people feel better about their own mortality.
So you like the preachers you blasted have something in common. That you have it right, and their can't be any other explaination deeper than your current understanding.
Thinking

Quote:This scared the piss out of me. I was going to lose my salvation, I was going to Hell, I was unworthy. But at the same time, I figured that if there is a God, He’s big enough to handle some tough questions.
Indeed, and all we need do is Ask, Seek and Knock for the consule of the Holy Spirit to have those questions answered.

Quote:So I kept probing. And once I had thought “there is no God,” I couldn’t un-think it. After 18 years, I had finally come down from that Hawaiian acid trip.
I use to think, their was no God. did so for some time. "Funny thing, God, Showed up."
(Someone tell the summer queen I'm quoting forrest gump now.)

Quote:It took the better part of a year, but I gradually went from terror at losing my faith to peace with reality. Yes, some day I will die, and that’s the end. But I’m satisfied with right here, right now. And I’m no longer tormented by my “sinful” thoughts, or suppressing my humanity in the name of godliness.

In 2005 I took the leap and declared myself an Atheist. And I’ve never looked back. Life is good, now that the cognitive dissonance is over.

May the FSM be with you.
If that's true, then what's the need for the 'cliff notes?'
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#13
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 10:34 am)Drich Wrote:
Quote:But there were problems. For one thing, I kept hearing pastors using completely wrong translations of the Hebrew Bible. Not just off by a little bit, but totally off-base interpretations that made no sense at all.
Which translation did they use and which one did you?

I'm not talking about translations like the NIV, KJV, NASB, Darby's, etc. etc. I'm talking about pastors reading some passage from the OT, then saying "the Hebrew word for 'storage space' here is makhsan, and it means 'the place where your arrows are kept.'" Or some similar totally made-up nonsense that reveals the pastor's inability to distinguish between etymology and interpretation.

Or the classic NT passage where Jesus says 'whatsoever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven,' and all the "prayer warriors" who learned from their pastor to say 'i bind you, satan!'

Ignorant stuff like that.

...but since you asked, I find the NIV to be the most readable, and the NASB to be the most accurate. I prefer to use multiple translations alongside the original if I'm trying to discern the original intent of the author.

Quote:
Quote:At the same time, I was having problems with Christian doctrine. Hell, for example – why would a loving God condemn the vast majority of His children to eternal torment?

The second issue is that "Hell" according to the bible is eternal torment for Satan. Meaning Satan is the only one the bible tells us that will burn in Hell forever. The rest of us are eventually consumed by the Hell fire. That is why so many time Christ refers to "Destruction in Hell" or the 2nd Death.
I am fully aware of this interpretation (which is far more in accord with OT Judaism), and embracing it kept me from rejecting the faith for many years. It also got me in trouble with the Hellfire & Brimstone crowd, but that's another story.

Quote:
Quote:Especially when the only thing they had really done was to be born in the “wrong” culture, to the “wrong” parents.
That's a myth.

No, it's not. A child born in rural China has almost zero chance of ever hearing the Gospel, let alone accepting it.

Quote:
Quote: Or the Trinity, which is nowhere in Scripture.
Agreed, it is simply a doctrine that describes/sums up the mentionings of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
It's alot more than "simply a doctrine." It was a cornerstone of the faith for most of the past 2000 years, and it's a teaching that alienates and disgusts both Jews and Muslims. It's also nonsensical.

Quote:
Quote:Or the fact that, by taking a strong Republican political stance, the Evangelical Church is needlessly alienating half the country.
no idea what this means in relation to scripture.
Nothing. It means a lot in relation to the people who preach scripture, though.

Quote:
Quote: And that numerous Biblical stories appear to be retellings of earlier stories, such as the Epic of Gilgamesh. And the more I learned, the more questions I had for my pastors.
Why can't these (The bible and the 11th tablet of the epic of Gilga) be confirming one actual event?
They probably are. A localized flood in the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates is the most plausible. But that's not what the Bible - or the Church - teaches.

Quote:
Quote:I got kicked out of a few churches for asking these questions.
Welcome to the club. I took 1 thess 5:21 to heart and questioned EVERYTHING. not just the questionable but the foundational as well. Those who simply wish to tow the line of their Father's religions don't like those type of questions.
That's "toe the line." Keep questioning, there may be hope for you yet.

Quote:
Quote:Then one day at a church picnic, I had a sudden epiphany. All the information I had made perfect sense if I accepted one simple concept: There is no God, it’s just a bunch of stories that help people feel better about their own mortality.
So you like the preachers you blasted have something in common. That you have it right, and their can't be any other explaination deeper than your current understanding.
Nope. I've been an atheist for nearly 10 years now, and I have repeatedly asked "god' to show me if I'm wrong. So far - nothing. Once you open your eyes, you can't unsee what you've seen, no matter how scary it might be.

Quote:
Quote:In 2005 I took the leap and declared myself an Atheist. And I’ve never looked back. Life is good, now that the cognitive dissonance is over.

May the FSM be with you.
If that's true, then what's the need for the 'cliff notes?'
Ever heard of testimony? Angel Cloud
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#14
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 2:51 am)Godschild Wrote:
(January 13, 2015 at 6:47 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: Ashville is a nice town. It's been a few years since I've been on that side of the mountain, but I'll probably be in Robbinsville after it warms up for a ride on the dragon's tail.

Yes it is, my father's family is from that area of NC. Are you going to ride the dragon all the way to Maryville, TN. Please be careful someone is killed on the dragon every year.

GC

I will, GC. It won't be my first ride on the dragon, but it will be my first two up on a Harley. Mom's family is from Tellico. Her mom's family is from Murphy, NC. I've been spending time in those mountains for more than 50 years now. I lived in the Tellico area for few years when I was younger, and in Farragut outside of Knoxville more recently so I know the area well.

This trip isn't fully planned out yet but would at least be from here to Tellico, across the Cherohala to Robbinsville, then on into Knoxville via the dragon. That's the short version. The long version would add down to to Townsend then 73 over to Gatlinburg before heading home.
Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.
[Image: JUkLw58.gif]
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#15
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 10:53 am)Davka Wrote: No, it's not. A child born in rural China has almost zero chance of ever hearing the Gospel, let alone accepting it.
Again not true. China is proving to be one of the fastest grown mission fields on the planet right now. There are many very hungry for the word of God and the result is that it is spreading like wild fire.

Quote:It's alot more than "simply a doctrine." It was a cornerstone of the faith for most of the past 2000 years, and it's a teaching that alienates and disgusts both Jews and Muslims. It's also nonsensical.
One man's corner stone is another man's stumbling block. We are only responsiable to that we have been given. If we have been given over to this understanding then we will be held accountable to it and if we can not understand how 3 can be one, then we are not.

Quote:
Quote: Why can't these (The bible and the 11th tablet of the epic of Gilga) be confirming one actual event?
They probably are. A localized flood in the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates is the most plausible. But that's not what the Bible - or the Church - teaches.
That's not what the 11th tablet teaches either. In the epic God decides to flood the world as well.

Quote:That's "toe the line." Keep questioning, there may be hope for you yet.
Tow the line is a "Eggcorn" ( mispelled phrase that can take on an expanded or new meaning with the new spelling)

"With the spelling tow the expression naturally takes on a slightly more active meaning: not simply conforming to the rules, but helping to enforce or confirm them."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/toe_the_line

The "Tow" the line mean better suits those indoctrinated into their Father's religion.

Quote:Nope. I've been an atheist for nearly 10 years now, and I have repeatedly asked "god' to show me if I'm wrong.
Moo hahaha, I mean you've come to the right place.

Quote:So far - nothing.
Keep seeking/Give it time.

Quote:Once you open your eyes, you can't unsee what you've seen, no matter how scary it might be.
This is true, but it doesn't mean scary will always be 'scary.'

Quote:If that's true, then what's the need for the 'cliff notes?'
Ever heard of testimony? Angel Cloud
[/quote]

Confused Fall
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#16
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 11:38 am)Drich Wrote:
(January 14, 2015 at 10:53 am)Davka Wrote: No, it's not. A child born in rural China has almost zero chance of ever hearing the Gospel, let alone accepting it.
Again not true. China is proving to be one of the fastest grown mission fields on the planet right now. There are many very hungry for the word of God and the result is that it is spreading like wild fire.

And the hundreds of millions of Chinese who were born, lived, and died before a single Christian ever set foot there? God was waiting to care about the Chinese until the 21st century?

The undeniable fact is that the vast majority of humanity has lived and died in complete ignorance of the Gospel.

Furthermore, which religion you accept is almost completely dependent on where you were born and who your parents were. You believe the way you believe because that's what you were taught in America. Had you been born in Iran, you would most likely be just as passionate about the "truth" of Islam.
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#17
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 11:50 am)Davka Wrote: And the hundreds of millions of Chinese who were born, lived, and died before a single Christian ever set foot there? God was waiting to care about the Chinese until the 21st century?

The undeniable fact is that the vast majority of humanity has lived and died in complete ignorance of the Gospel.

Furthermore, which religion you accept is almost completely dependent on where you were born and who your parents were. You believe the way you believe because that's what you were taught in America. Had you been born in Iran, you would most likely be just as passionate about the "truth" of Islam.

Again, we are only responisble for what we have been given, as per the parable of the talents. For those 100's of millions they like the rest of us will be judged according to what God has given them to be responsible for.

The false idea of needing one specific view/One demominational system of Christian belief comes from the idea that their is only one type of acceptable for of Christianity. In essence "One true Christian ™" When in fact the reason we do not have one set of rule to govern every aspect of worship (like the Jews did) is because we are only responsible to what we have been given over to understand.

This way it is not the rights rituals and traditions that save us, it is the condition of our hearts that can be judged or held to account.
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#18
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Drich Wrote:
(January 14, 2015 at 11:50 am)Davka Wrote: And the hundreds of millions of Chinese who were born, lived, and died before a single Christian ever set foot there? God was waiting to care about the Chinese until the 21st century?

The undeniable fact is that the vast majority of humanity has lived and died in complete ignorance of the Gospel.

Furthermore, which religion you accept is almost completely dependent on where you were born and who your parents were. You believe the way you believe because that's what you were taught in America. Had you been born in Iran, you would most likely be just as passionate about the "truth" of Islam.

Again, we are only responisble for what we have been given, as per the parable of the talents. For those 100's of millions they like the rest of us will be judged according to what God has given them to be responsible for.
That's not what the Bible says. Do a word-study on "salvation" and "saved."

Jesus disagrees with your assessment. Paul thinks you're a wanker. John is tripping on something, you can pretty much ignore him.
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#19
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
(January 14, 2015 at 12:11 pm)Davka Wrote:
(January 14, 2015 at 12:01 pm)Drich Wrote: Again, we are only responisble for what we have been given, as per the parable of the talents. For those 100's of millions they like the rest of us will be judged according to what God has given them to be responsible for.
That's not what the Bible says. Do a word-study on "salvation" and "saved."

Jesus disagrees with your assessment. Paul thinks you're a wanker. John is tripping on something, you can pretty much ignore him.


Actually no word study needed here, Christ Himself has the final word concerning Salvation:
14 “At that time God’s kingdom will also be like a man leaving home to travel to another place for a visit. Before he left, he talked with his servants. He told his servants to take care of his things while he was gone. 15 He decided how much each servant would be able to care for. The man gave one servant five bags of money.[a] He gave another servant two bags. And he gave a third servant one bag. Then he left. 16 The servant who got five bags went quickly to invest the money. Those five bags of money earned five more. 17 It was the same with the servant who had two bags. That servant invested the money and earned two more. 18 But the servant who got one bag of money went away and dug a hole in the ground. Then he hid his master’s money in the hole.

19 “After a long time the master came home. He asked the servants what they did with his money. 20 The servant who got five bags brought that amount and five more bags of money to the master. The servant said, ‘Master, you trusted me to care for five bags of money. So I used them to earn five more.’

21 “The master answered, ‘You did right. You are a good servant who can be trusted. You did well with that small amount of money. So I will let you care for much greater things. Come and share my happiness with me.’

22 “Then the servant who got two bags of money came to the master. The servant said, ‘Master, you gave me two bags of money to care for. So I used your two bags to earn two more.’

23 “The master answered, ‘You did right. You are a good servant who can be trusted. You did well with a small amount of money. So I will let you care for much greater things. Come and share my happiness with me.’

24 “Then the servant who got one bag of money came to the master. The servant said, ‘Master, I knew you were a very hard man. You harvest what you did not plant. You gather crops where you did not put any seed. 25 So I was afraid. I went and hid your money in the ground. Here is the one bag of money you gave me.’

26 “The master answered, ‘You are a bad and lazy servant! You say you knew that I harvest what I did not plant and that I gather crops where I did not put any seed. 27 So you should have put my money in the bank. Then, when I came home, I would get my money back. And I would also get the interest that my money earned.’

28 “So the master told his other servants, ‘Take the one bag of money from that servant and give it to the servant who has ten bags. 29 Everyone who uses what they have will get more. They will have much more than they need. But people who do not use what they have will have everything taken away from them.’ 30 Then the master said, ‘Throw that useless servant outside into the darkness, where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.’

Your faith was a system or series of doctrinal beliefs. Meaning everything you believe about Christianity is based on one religions views or teachings first, then you looked to the bible for support. Hence your need to try and redirect the conversation to a word study.

I have thrown all that garbage out, and simply seek what the bible says first.

In this case no word study needed, as Jesus Himself tell us what His kingdom requirements will be like.
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#20
RE: New Ager to Christian to Atheist
So one parable trumps everything else in the Gospels?

How convenient.
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