New Ager to Christian to Atheist

[Godscreated]

So, after the trip and 18 years it all came down to going to hell, you dumped Christianity over your fear of hell,

Not even close. The doctrine of hell was ONE of the things that i found myself wrestling with. Like I said, it's the Cliff's Notes version of the story.

You're welcome to ask questions about my journey, but please don't leap to unfounded conclusions.

Then you shouldn't leave out the important parts, Cliff's notes or not.

...why not the great and loving relationship with the Creator of the universe, that's a relationship that can't be had any other way except through Christ, wasn't this important...

Yes, it was. In fact, part of my journey was the rather unsettling discovery that this "relationship" can be and is found in other religions. In my travels, I had the opportunity to have long, searching conversations with Muslims, Pagans, Orthodox Jews and others - and their stories of the transcendent love of their respective deities were identical to the stories Christians tell.

I find that hard to believe no other god has died for the sins of those he created, "there's no greater love than having one to lay down his life for you."

Because I love to read and to learn, I eventually became fascinated with studies about how our brains work. It seems that there is an area in our brain which, if stimulated, causes ~70% of people to have a "religious experience." Add to this the dopamine rush we get from group activities (like singing or prayer), and you're a long ways towards explaining that apparently "supernatural" love.

The science of the brain is far from perfect and the understanding of the brain is even less. The more we study the brain, the more we know we don't know about it. Let's say for a moment that what you say is right, how is it you know for certain that God did not create the brain to function in this way, this would open up a way of experiencing our Creator.

You never stated why God told you to go to Israel and it seems that you ran from that mission, if it was one, because you got scared and lost trust in the God that supposedly sent you there.

That's quite a leap. It's also completely inaccurate. Cliff's Notes, remember? 35 years doesn't compress easily.

Then put in the important parts, when you leave out the basics of God's actions in our lives it gives me the idea you haven't really understood Christianity.

It seems to me that middle Tennessee was a destination you picked, why, because you never said God told you to leave Israel.

Again why leave out the important parts of God's actions in our lives, all you gave was your fear of a situation, you're leaving the impression you did not trust in the God you professed to believe in.

Again, Cliff's Notes. "God" told me to move to Nashville. And it's a good thing too, because I might never have come down off that acid trip if i had stayed among intelligent, well-educated Christian scholars in Israel. People there actually admitted that I was asking tough questions, instead of trying to shut me down.

Again why leave out the important parts of God's actions in our lives, all you gave was your fear of a situation. You're leaving the impression you did not trust in the God you professed to believe in. I've done the same here in East Tennessee, I know there are uneducated people in the churches of Tennessee, but is that a reason to say there's no God, the Nashville area is quite large and has more than one Christian university in the area, why did you not seek out these people. I have no idea what your attitude was with them, could that have been a reason for them to turn you off?

Your story is curious at best and not very believable at worst, not in the sense it didn't happen, but in the sense that you might have never been a Christian.

I wondered how long it would be until someone said that.

That I'm sure of and I'm sure everyone else was wondering too.

It's what I used to believe as a Christian, too.

Really, how personal was your relationship with God, did He make himself known to you, a way that left no doubts?

Even though the scriptures clearly teach otherwise, the Church says you can't be "truly saved' and then walk away. Why? Because they fear ex-Christians far more than simple heathens.

Strange that's the first time I've heard that from anyone, believer or not, I'm speaking of the fear of those who leave the church. You right, a person can be saved and leave the faith, however if one's truly saved one truly knows God and once you really know something is real how can you say it's not real, curious, very curious me thinks. Were you a Baptist, the Southern Baptist are the only ones I know who believe in once saved always saved, but this one doesn't.

You tell me, how is it that one can come to actually know God and then deny His existence,

Read your Bible. The end of Luke chapter 9, for example. Or the Pauline Epistles, specifically where he talks about those who have tasted the fruits of the kingdom and turned away. (I'd give you chapter and verse, but BibleGateway has made searching a lot harder recently).

Not necessary in this case, both those references are not dealing with those who know the reality of God, just because one tastes the fruit does not necessarily mean they will accept it as the real thing, free will is their justification to turn it down and so it should be. They however never knew the God of creation. Let's say they did know there's actually the God of scripture, like you stated they turned away, that doesn't mean they were denying God existed.

The Bible teaches that True BelieversTM can and do turn from "god." In fact, the people who selected and edited the books of the Bible were extremely clever, making certain to include lots of passages warning the faithful against former believers who dare to use rational thought to probe irrational doctrine.

Perceived rational thought. The scriptures teach us that it's a rational act to accept Christ as our savior. I'm at a disadvantage here I do not know where the scriptures say our beliefs are irrational. I know the scriptures say we could appear to be irrational to unbelievers, but that we're not irrational.

You should have come to East Tennessee and talked with my pastor who studies the scriptures from the Greek. This is another reason I find your story hard to believe, God wouldn't send you to a place where there was no one to teach you, He doesn't work that way.

Did you actually read my story? I speak Hebrew, dude! I studied Biblical Hebrew as well, and spent years among some of the foremost Biblical scholars in the world! I also learned how to study the scriptures from the Greek. There were dozens of people to teach me, and to answer - and honestly wrestle with - my questions.

I read it, and I know people can speak and read Hebrew, that in no way means you or they understand what God is saying to you/them. God makes things clear to me, even though there's no actual voice I can understand it in English. Pretty sure God's language isn't English, Hebrew or Greek and I know that we do not know the meaning of some of the Hebrew and Greek words in scripture. If these men were so smart why didn't they have an answer for you. There are many professors in Tennessee that are excellent in the Greek and Hebrew.

I lived in Jerusalem, and deliberately sought out teachers and scholars. Ones who were actually educated, not semi-literate backwoods pastors who studied Koine Greek in Podunk for a semester and think they can translate from the original.

Insulting those who could teach you many things about scripture isn't any way to get along with them, remember I asked what attitude you had with these pastor, it's no wonder they put off a self proclaimed Bible scholar.
My pastor was a nuclear engineer before God called him into the ministry, that backwoods pastor could school you in many areas of Christianity and I know a few others that can do the same. Some of the best Greek professors are in the Southern Baptist Church. Living in Jerusalem doesn't count for much.

I walked on streets where Jesus supposedly walked. I explored the archaeological layers beneath the streets of Jerusalem. I traveled the country for 7 years, and asked hard, probing questions of Biblical Archaeologists at digs in the Galil as well as the Negev. I was surrounded by teachers!

I went to school with many who were surrounded by teachers and they turned out to be idiots, they even asked questions in school, the answers were lost on them.
Here's how I've learned much from the scriptures, I traveled many years with teachers and never left East Tennessee, but most importantly I traveled through the scriptures with the One who gave them to man, big difference in our educations, I went directly to the source and many of my questions have been answered, still waiting on a few though, patience will bring the answers when I'm ready to understand the answers.

Ever heard of Origen? Justin Martyr? Polycarp? Clement of Rome? Augustine? Whatever you do, don't read what they had to say. You won't like it. Actually studying the first-century context of the New Testament is the last thing anyone should do if they want to remain a Christian.

I have no fear from them, nor you. Origen 150 years removed from Christ. Justin Martyr 100 years removed from Christ. Polycarp 90 years removed from Christ. Clement of Rome, knew Peter probably same age as Christ. Augustine 3 centuries removed from Christ. I have no fear of the words these men had, I know God actually exists, no doubts, no fears.

Don't examine the Books too closely, because (like any fantasy story) they don't hold together well under scrutiny.

The Bible has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.
That must have been some really bad acid to last 18 years, actually I believe it's still going strong, the best I ever got out of it was 12 hours. So a brain fried as badly as yours must hold some really weird notions at this time.

GC

---

Yes it is, my father's family is from that area of NC. Are you going to ride the dragon all the way to Maryville, TN. Please be careful someone is killed on the dragon every year.

GC

I will, GC. It won't be my first ride on the dragon, but it will be my first two up on a Harley. Mom's family is from Tellico. Her mom's family is from Murphy, NC. I've been spending time in those mountains for more than 50 years now. I lived in the Tellico area for few years when I was younger, and in Farragut outside of Knoxville more recently so I know the area well.

This trip isn't fully planned out yet but would at least be from here to Tellico, across the Cherohala to Robbinsville, then on into Knoxville via the dragon. That's the short version. The long version would add down to to Townsend then 73 over to Gatlinburg before heading home.

We have somethings in common, I grew up in the Fountain City/ Inskip area of Knoxville, I now reside in Sevier county. I love those mountains though they are beginning to become to populated there are still some wild places left. Use to run the river a Franklin, NC in a kayak great fun when I was able to do that. I'm not a rider nor have I ever been, but if I had the dragon might have gotten me in the 70's or 80's, crazy years. I love Townsend still a place many tourist haven't found, hope it stays that way I like to trout fish over there. Gatlinburg ain't my cup of tea, though I've spent many days there, mostly to make the family happy or in my younger days to party. People who haven't been to the Dragon and Cherohala parts of TN/NC do not know the beauty they've missed.

GC

[Davka]

Then you shouldn't leave out the important parts, Cliff's notes or not.

Sorry, but I'm not writing this according to your specifications. I was telling a condensed story, which means choosing the quickest way to advance the narrative. Inserting "god said" and "the spirit of god filled me" and "i was led by god" and "there were multiple confirmations of god's message" every few sentences does not accomplish that.

And let's be honest: you're just nit-picking because you don't like the story.

I find that hard to believe no other god has died for the sins of those he created...

Not true.
Dying-and-rising god

You cannot possibly know what those who follow other religions are experiencing. I choose to take them at their word, rather than irrationally claim that they are wrong and i am right based only on the fact that my (former) religion is different from theirs.

But of course every religious person must believe in the supremacy of their religion over others.

Then put in the important parts, when you leave out the basics of God's actions in our lives it gives me the idea you haven't really understood Christianity.

No, what gives you that idea is your desperate need to explain away the fact that someone who was willing to die for his love of Christ could wake up one day and realize that it was merely fiction.

Really, how personal was your relationship with God, did He make himself known to you, a way that left no doubts?

Oh yes, over and over again. I prayed fervently about every detail of my life, stopping often to ask for confirmation.

My wife and I endeavored to live by faith, according to the overwhelming love we both felt from "god." For many years, whenever I encountered doubts i would simply look back on all the "miracles" in my life and conclude that none of it could have happened by chance.

Whatever you do, don't study Confirmation Bias, or read about the experiments in this field.

if one's truly saved one truly knows God and once you really know something is real how can you say it's not real, curious, very curious me thinks.

People "know" all sorts of things that are untrue. The mind is a tricky thing.

Were you a Baptist, the Southern Baptist are the only ones I know who believe in once saved always saved, but this one doesn't.

I was a born-again non-denominational evangelical charismatic pentecostal washed-in-the-blood speaking-in-tongues spirit-filled grafted-in messianic-jewish study-to-shew-thyself-approved fundamentalist Jesus-loving Christ-worshiping Christian.

If these men were so smart why didn't they have an answer for you.

They did. They had many answers. they were honest, and frank, and helped me to wrestle with the Scriptures.

Way to move the goalposts, BTW. "God wouldn't send you where there was nobody to teach you." There were plenty of people to teach me. "Then it doesn't count because ad-hom!"

Here's how I've learned much from the scriptures, I traveled many years with teachers and never left East Tennessee,

Well that explains a lot.

but most importantly I traveled through the scriptures with the One who gave them to man, big difference in our educations, I went directly to the source and many of my questions have been answered, still waiting on a few though, patience will bring the answers when I'm ready to understand the answers.

No difference whatsoever in terms of reading the Bible with the guidance of the holy spirit. That was the first thing I was taught, way back in Hawaii: always read the scripture with prayer and humility.

I know God actually exists, no doubts, no fears.

No, you believe god actually exists. You have no real proof. And nothing but circumstantial evidence. But the belief makes you feel safe, while admitting the possibility that it might not be true terrifies you.

The Bible has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Koran has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Bhagavad-gita has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Avesta has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Vedic scripture has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Sutras have been attacked for many centuries and yet they still stand and that testifies to their strength of truth.

The Theravedic scripture has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Dhammapada has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

The Tao Te Ching has been attacked for many centuries and yet it still stands and that testifies to it's strength of truth.

See what happens when you live a xenocentric life? You foolishly think that your tiny little corner of the world is representative of the whole. It's not.

So a brain fried as badly as yours must hold some really weird notions at this time.

Oooh, insults! What a very Christian thing to say. Jesus must be proud of the way you show His love to others.

I am well aware that nothing i say can ever convince you that i was a True ChristianTM with an intimate, personal relationship with "god." The only way you could ever recognize that would be to travel the same path yourself.

Kind of like salvation, y'know?

[watchamadoodle]

Ever heard of Origen? Justin Martyr? Polycarp? Clement of Rome? Augustine? Whatever you do, don't read what they had to say. You won't like it. Actually studying the first-century context of the New Testament is the last thing anyone should do if they want to remain a Christian. Don't examine the Books too closely, because (like any fantasy story) they don't hold together well under scrutiny.

What is it about the works you listed that cause issues for Christians? I have only read itty-bitty excerpts from some of them. I liked some of Origen's ideas about salvation. Just curious.

[Davka]

Ever heard of Origen? Justin Martyr? Polycarp? Clement of Rome? Augustine? Whatever you do, don't read what they had to say. You won't like it. Actually studying the first-century context of the New Testament is the last thing anyone should do if they want to remain a Christian. Don't examine the Books too closely, because (like any fantasy story) they don't hold together well under scrutiny.

What is it about the works you listed that cause issues for Christians? I have only read itty-bitty excerpts from some of them. I liked some of Origen's ideas about salvation. Just curious.

In a nutshell, Christianity today looks almost nothing like Christianity circa 200 CE. These people are considered the Church Fathers, but they look more like the crazy uncle nobody talks about.

[robvalue]

For some reason I keep reading the title of the thread to be, "New aga to christian to atheist".

Damn these philosophical ovens. Cook my meal and shut up.

[watchamadoodle]

What is it about the works you listed that cause issues for Christians? I have only read itty-bitty excerpts from some of them. I liked some of Origen's ideas about salvation. Just curious.

In a nutshell, Christianity today looks almost nothing like Christianity circa 200 CE. These people are considered the Church Fathers, but they look more like the crazy uncle nobody talks about.

I read the surviving letter from Polycarp and started slogging through 1 Clement last night. They would certainly bore a person to death.

[Davka]

For some reason I keep reading the title of the thread to be, "New aga to christian to atheist".

Damn these philosophical ovens. Cook my meal and shut up.

How can a meal truly be said to be "yours"? What is a meal, really? If I remove a single french fry from a happy meal, is it still a meal? If a frozen pizza burns in the oven and there is nobody there to smell it, does it make a stink?

[Godscreated]

Then you shouldn't leave out the important parts, Cliff's notes or not.

Sorry, but I'm not writing this according to your specifications. I was telling a condensed story, which means choosing the quickest way to advance the narrative. Inserting "god said" and "the spirit of god filled me" and "i was led by god" and "there were multiple confirmations of god's message" every few sentences does not accomplish that.

And let's be honest: you're just nit-picking because you don't like the story.

You're correct I find your story suspicious, even more so as you continue to post. I'm not nit-picking, I'm scrutinizing. What you say about why you wrote the OP the way you did is probably true, you haven't addressed anything I noted, leaves much to be cautious about.

I find that hard to believe no other god has died for the sins of those he created...

Not true.
Dying-and-rising god

I said nothing about other god stories of dying and rising, my statement was matter of fact, "no other god has died for the sins and redemption of those He created.

You cannot possibly know what those who follow other religions are experiencing. I choose to take them at their word, rather than irrationally claim that they are wrong and i am right based only on the fact that my (former) religion is different from theirs.

I know that God is the only real God, so I assume that those in other religions are mostly trying to convince themselves they have the right religion. How is it you can claim you were a Christian and accept there were other God's, that is totally against the belief.

But of course every religious person must believe in the supremacy of their religion over others.

Why, only one is true, with no stone, wooden idol or animal being the god.

Then put in the important parts, when you leave out the basics of God's actions in our lives it gives me the idea you haven't really understood Christianity.

No, what gives you that idea is your desperate need to explain away the fact that someone who was willing to die for his love of Christ could wake up one day and realize that it was merely fiction.

I have no desperate need to explain away your actions, I fully accept you believe what you say, I just do not take it accept you were a Christian at all. The one in my opinion who's desperate is yourself, you have returned to your original desire of the self, that which Adam and Eve suffered. Rejecting the truth of God's reality means for you that God was never real. Even though you may have believed so at that time, He was never real to you and thus you could have never been a real Christian, no God = no Christian, period. If you had truly known God you could reject what He stands for but, you could not reject His reality.

Really, how personal was your relationship with God, did He make himself known to you, a way that left no doubts?

Oh yes, over and over again. I prayed fervently about every detail of my life, stopping often to ask for confirmation.

This can't be true, you have rejected His existence and to do this means you had deluded yourself for whatever reason.

My wife and I endeavored to live by faith, according to the overwhelming love we both felt from "god." For many years, whenever I encountered doubts i would simply look back on all the "miracles" in my life and conclude that none of it could have happened by chance.

How could there have been love if there was no God. Christians do this from time to time, but those who know God will most likely not leave God.

Whatever you do, don't study Confirmation Bias, or read about the experiments in this field.

Like I said, I'm not afraid of that kind of book, I have the book of Truth that has confirmed much in my life. You listening to man instead of God has brought you to this point in your life.

if one's truly saved one truly knows God and once you really know something is real how can you say it's not real, curious, very curious me thinks.

People "know" all sorts of things that are untrue. The mind is a tricky thing.

Only if you allow the mind to fool you into believing the untrue is true. Acid can have that effect on a person's mind.

Were you a Baptist, the Southern Baptist are the only ones I know who believe in once saved always saved, but this one doesn't.

... washed-in-the-blood speaking-in-tongues spirit-filled grafted-in messianic-jewish study-to-shew-thyself-approved fundamentalist Jesus-loving Christ-worshiping Christian.

Now that you have rejected the existence of God you know this can't be true.

Way to move the goalposts, BTW. "God wouldn't send you where there was nobody to teach you." There were plenty of people to teach me.

I didn't move anything, you did not mention there were others to teach you, the only thing you had to say was the way they knew nothing and you were right. You can drop these atheist cliches, I've heard them all, they make you sound childish.

Here's how I've learned much from the scriptures, I traveled many years with teachers and never left East Tennessee,

Well that explains a lot.

What does that mean, as if I didn't know.

but most importantly I traveled through the scriptures with the One who gave them to man, big difference in our educations, I went directly to the source and many of my questions have been answered, still waiting on a few though, patience will bring the answers when I'm ready to understand the answers.

No difference whatsoever in terms of reading the Bible with the guidance of the holy spirit. That was the first thing I was taught, way back in Hawaii: always read the scripture with prayer and humility.

You couldn't have been guided by the Holy Spirit, you do not believe He exists, if you knew He did you couldn't reject His existence, only His teaching.

I know God actually exists, no doubts, no fears.

No, you believe god actually exists. You have no real proof. And nothing but circumstantial evidence. But the belief makes you feel safe, while admitting the possibility that it might not be true terrifies you.

I have nothing to be terrified of, God is real and I know it's so, He's revealed Himself to me many times and proven Himself many times, He's answered very specific prayer very specificly. I have all the real proof that's needed and that scares you, doesn't it.

So a brain fried as badly as yours must hold some really weird notions at this time.

Oooh, insults! What a very Christian thing to say. Jesus must be proud of the way you show His love to others.

There you go with those childish cliches again, a diversion from the true. There was no insult meant, you and I both know what acid can do to the brain. By the way you described your trip in the OP, your egg was in the frying pan far longer than mine.

I am well aware that nothing i say can ever convince you that i was a True ChristianTM with an intimate, personal relationship with "god." The only way you could ever recognize that would be to travel the same path yourself.

You have stated a truth, one who denies the existence of God could never of had a relationship with Him, it would be like having a relationship with the FSM. It's a shame you went looking for a way out instead of actually seeking God through Christ his Messiah.

GC

[Davka]

[quote='Davka' pid='846254' dateline='1421336058']

Sorry, but I'm not writing this according to your specifications. I was telling a condensed story, which means choosing the quickest way to advance the narrative. Inserting "god said" and "the spirit of god filled me" and "i was led by god" and "there were multiple confirmations of god's message" every few sentences does not accomplish that.

And let's be honest: you're just nit-picking because you don't like the story.

You're correct I find your story suspicious, even more so as you continue to post. I'm not nit-picking, I'm scrutinizing. What you say about why you wrote the OP the way you did is probably true, you haven't addressed anything I noted, leaves much to be cautious about. [/quoted]

I've addressed a number of things you noted. I didn't address all of them because, frankly, your posts are waaaaaaaay too long, I'm not wading through all that text.

I said nothing about other god stories of dying and rising, my statement was matter of fact, "no other god has died for the sins and redemption of those He created.

No other god created evil, allowed the enemy of his beloved children into the "perfect" garden, and then blamed his innocent and clueless children for doing what he (being omniscient) knew they would do in the first place, either.

I know that God is the only real God,

No, you don't. You believe it. That's not the same thing.

How is it you can claim you were a Christian and accept there were other God's, that is totally against the belief.

I didn't believe it when i was a Christian. I don't believe in any gods now, so of course they are all equal, as in equally false.

[quote]But of course every religious person must believe in the supremacy of their religion over others.

Why, only one is true, with no stone, wooden idol or animal being the god.[/quote]
You really don't know much about other religions, do you?

I have no desperate need to explain away your actions

Then why are you expending so much energy on it?

[quote]Oh yes, over and over again. I prayed fervently about every detail of my life, stopping often to ask for confirmation.

This can't be true, you have rejected His existence and to do this means you had deluded yourself for whatever reason.[/quote]This is circular logic.

It's also exactly what i would have thought when i was a Christian. "Real ChristiansTM cannot reject God!" It's a pretty clever loophole to insert into a religion. It's not in the Bible, but it's what American Evangelicals believe.

[quote]My wife and I endeavored to live by faith, according to the overwhelming love we both felt from "god." For many years, whenever I encountered doubts i would simply look back on all the "miracles" in my life and conclude that none of it could have happened by chance.

How could there have been love if there was no God.[/quote]

The science of love

No gods need apply.

Christians do this from time to time, but those who know God will most likely not leave God.

Now you've backpedaled from "it can't be true" to "it most likely didn't happen"?

make up your mind.

[quote]Whatever you do, don't study Confirmation Bias, or read about the experiments in this field.

Like I said, I'm not afraid of that kind of book, I have the book of Truth that has confirmed much in my life. You listening to man instead of God has brought you to this point in your life.[/quote]Your fear of man has brought you to this point in yours.

Bored now.

[dyresand]

ISAIAH 45:7 god created evil.