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RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 9, 2010 at 6:21 pm
"Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe."
And how can you possibly know that?
Another question: How do you believers view God? What does he look like? Where does he live? Does he breath? Does he eat?
Is he a spirit? Is it even a "he"?
If you're not God, you can't possibly know. But tell me what you think.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 9, 2010 at 7:17 pm (This post was last modified: March 9, 2010 at 7:17 pm by tavarish.)
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: I had to mail you beacuase your PM box was full that's all.. as to your question:
selflessness is all about intent. You can really take a narrow view and say you're praying to feel good, because it historically has felt good to pray, but that leads in a circle. If you pray to get joy or happiness then your intent is for a selfish goal.If you pray for someone elses joy or happiness then your intent is not based off self. If you are praying for someone else becuase it makes you feel good to help someone, then your intent is selfish.
So what happens if you pray for someone else to feel good, and by default it makes you feel good?
Honestly I do think religion is just made up along the way.
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe.
You said God had a nature. He cannot act against that nature. He is subject to the laws of that nature. The only reason you say God could not have been created is because you believe it to be. It doesn't shed any light as to where the God attributes come from. It also imposes a pretty obvious double standard, as anything "prior" to the big bang would be unknown and definitely falls into the realm of existing outside our working knowledge of the universe.
God always was, but the universe somehow needs a creator.
(March 9, 2010 at 6:21 pm)Soyouz Wrote: "Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe."
And how can you possibly know that?
Another question: How do you believers view God? What does he look like? Where does he live? Does he breath? Does he eat?
Is he a spirit? Is it even a "he"?
If you're not God, you can't possibly know. But tell me what you think.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 9, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Quote:So what happens if you pray for someone else to feel good, and by default it makes you feel good?
You're not supposed to ask that. ybservation that human beings are motivated by self interest more than anyother motive.
Some questions to a believer and what I see as some likely answers:
Q "Do you pray?"
A "Yes"
Q "When you pray, do you feel fearful or distressed by the experience?"
A "No"
Q "Do you feel nothing?"
A "No"
Q "Do you feel any or all of these things?
Close to God
Safe
Happy
Satisfied
any other positive feeling?"
IF you answer; "Yes" to any of those things,it can be argued you pray from self interest.
Altruism is about doing good for its own sake. The believer who does good because of a sense of duty, to avoid guilt, satisfaction,or who obeys his god from fear of punishment or for the hope of rewards is acting from self interest.
The above is an observation,not a moral judgment. My position in that we humans are only just another species of animal, nor more important than any other.In terms of the health of the environment, probably far less important than most.
Thought for today: Are living things only DNA's way of making more DNA?
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 9, 2010 at 11:58 pm
Actually humans are an expression of the Earth's need for plastic. That is what we evolved to do, or maybe the world needed stronger alloys. I liked Carlin's take that the world is going to shake us off like a bunch of fleas one of these days. It was funny anyway.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 12:51 am
(March 9, 2010 at 7:17 pm)tavarish Wrote:
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: I had to mail you beacuase your PM box was full that's all.. as to your question:
selflessness is all about intent. You can really take a narrow view and say you're praying to feel good, because it historically has felt good to pray, but that leads in a circle. If you pray to get joy or happiness then your intent is for a selfish goal.If you pray for someone elses joy or happiness then your intent is not based off self. If you are praying for someone else becuase it makes you feel good to help someone, then your intent is selfish.
1-So what happens if you pray for someone else to feel good, and by default it makes you feel good?
2-Honestly I do think religion is just made up along the way.
(March 9, 2010 at 4:17 am)tackattack Wrote: Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe.
3-You said God had a nature. He cannot act against that nature. He is subject to the laws of that nature. The only reason you say God could not have been created is because you believe it to be. It doesn't shed any light as to where the God attributes come from. It also imposes a pretty obvious double standard, as anything "prior" to the big bang would be unknown and definitely falls into the realm of existing outside our working knowledge of the universe.
4-God always was, but the universe somehow needs a creator.
(March 9, 2010 at 6:21 pm)Soyouz Wrote:
"Because the World is a part of our known universe and subject to the laws applied here. It may be "convienent" that God (if he does) exists outside our known percieved universe, but it doesn't excuse the Earth from laws we all equally apply to reality within said known universe."
5-And how can you possibly know that?
6.Another question: How do you believers view God? What does he look like? Where does he live? Does he breath? Does he eat?Is he a spirit? Is it even a "he"?
If you're not God, you can't possibly know. But tell me what you think.
I'll post fr0d0's argument:
God is transcendent.
...and boom goes the dynamite.
[/quote]
1-look up altruism, it's selfless.. that's intent
2-Religion's been around longer than science
3- Anything prior is unknown and definitely falls into the realm of existing outside our working knowledge of the universe. bolded is what I refer to as the known universe. God can exist inside the Universe, but outside our known universe.
4-He might or might not need or have a creator, all this is high speculation for me. I don't even posit that God exists withing our known universe. It is however a speculation on possibilities.
5-That the Earth is part of our percieved universe? I'm standing on it.
6- I can't speak for all believers just me. I don't see God as anything more than an absolute force radiating his attributes from outside our perceptable universe. Most probably see his as having human characteristics. I believe the Bible meant that he gave us free will and discernement to make us in his image not 2 arms 2 legs, etc.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 8:11 am
Carlin was a genius. There is an example of comedy being very honest and telling. I liked when he was older and more angry. He would shout "The politicians don't care about you at all!" and everyone would laugh. "They don't give one fuck about any of us", laughter. He wasn't laughing.
His best peice was the one: "When a new president is elected, no matter from what party, he is taken into a smoky room with the fat cats that run the show. The lights go down. He is shown a clip of the JFK assassination from an angle he had never seen it from before. The lights turn on, and the man puffs his cigar and asks "any questions"."
Word for word one of the best descriptions of the working of the US fed govt. I imagine that is a very likely scenario.
RE: What do believers say when you ask or tell them..
March 10, 2010 at 9:10 am
Quote:Religion's been around longer than science
And knows far less.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
