Evidence God Exists

[hellfire]

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As a newcomer, I sometimes wonder why, at least amongst thinking people, is the argument re the existence of god still with us. Sure, for those who are so petrified by the thought of personal extinction that they will accept ANY alternative, the existence of god has GOT to be true.

I would suggest that, however intelligent the individual, if he/she has this innate fear, then they would appear to have an infinite capacity to 'overlook' clear observation and logical argument.

Points to consider:

If god has a plan, then he must be dissatisfied with the status quo. A dissatisfied deity???!!!

When this plan is fulfilled, then god will have moved from god A (unfulfilled) to god B (fulfilled).

Question: How does a god evolve when, by definition god is the ultimate and highest creation?

A much simpler and not very original one: If god is all knowing and all seeing, then why did he bother creating two people and giving them 'free will' (or as we call it in the UK - Hobson's choice!), when he knew the outcome of his experiment.

Why make the poor buggers suffer from an innate weakness that god had programmed into them in the first place?

I'm not presenting the above as being new and groundbreaking arguments - but does fear really make believers ignore such obvious questions?

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[Ashendant]

This should be a short thread....

I guess you were wrong...

[downbeatplumb]

100 pages and still no evidence.

As an exercise in futility it certainly has staying power.

[Regens Küchl]

Hey y'all, I'm back. Been swamped. But I never forgot about my peeps here and the pile of unanswered replies I have on this thread.

WOW ! OH, HI ! But if you return I must also return !

You know, I am the dreaded Regens Küchl. Your old Nemesis, your dark Mirrorimage, your spectacular enemy in the realm of religion !

I am to you exactly like the Green Goblin is to Spiderman !


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I'll start with Entropist...

As I said on another post, Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer.

You pointed to the 9/11 disaster to demonstrate that prayer doesn't work, since there must've been many Christians among those who died. But you're failing to acknowledge that while many people died, many others also got away. And no, I don't believe everyone that got out did so because they prayed. But God answered those who did pray. And others, including non-believers, got out because their time on this earth wasn't up.

I can tell you that some 12 members from one church in New Jersey who were supposed to be at the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11 never made it for one reason or another. Some were out sick, others didn't make it because of car trouble, etc. God has many ways of saving and protecting his people.

So here's how it breaks down:

Thousands of believers got out of the WTC because they prayed.

Others were protected by God, because he didn't allow them to even get to the towers that morning.

Of the believers that died, some, as you put it, may have not been true Christians.

Others may have been true Christians, but prayed without faith. Even if a person is a good Christian, praying without faith will yield no results.

And of course there's the many believers who didn't take time to pray as they were too horrified.

I'm assuming that some atheists and unbelievers got out safely as well, but that's because their time on this earth wasn't up. The algorithm in God's work is very complex, and he sometimes uses unbelievers for his own reasons and purposes.

Being a Christian does not put you in some sort of untouchable club. It's having true faith that will keep you protected. This is God's promise. However, if God feels that your time on this earth is up, then your time on this earth is up.

Oh no, but this is so poor. Please, you have to promise me to try to do better from now on. This here is extreme garbage even from a Xian

[downbeatplumb]

I kinda want a nemesis now.

[AngelThMan]

You can have him.

[hellfire]

You can have him.

As a newcomer, I sometimes wonder why, at least amongst thinking people, is the argument re the existence of god still with us. Sure, for those who are so petrified by the thought of personal extinction that they will accept ANY alternative, the existence of god has GOT to be true.

I would suggest that, however intelligent the individual, if he/she has this inherent fear, then they have an infinite capacity to 'overlook' a logical postulate.

Points to consider:

If god has a plan, then he must be dissatisfied with the status quo. A dissatisfied deity???!!!

When this plan is fulfilled, then god will have moved from god A (unfulfilled) to god B (fulfilled).

Question: How does a god evolve when, by definition god is the ultimate and highest creation?

A much simpler and not very original one: If god is all knowing and all seeing, then why did he bother creating two people and giving them 'free will' (or as we call it in the UK - Hobson's choice!), when he knew the outcome of his experiment. Why make the poor buggers suffer from an innate weakness that god had programmed into them in the first place?

I'm not presenting the above as being new and groundbreaking arguments - but does fear really make believers ignore such obvious questions? innate appear


Hi AngelThMan,

The discussion on the involvement or non involvement of god in the welfare of individuals to me seems bizarre.

To you it seems based on one tenet, that god, as represented in the bible is a reality. Do you not question the massive contradictions that come into existence once such a claim is made?

I offered up some questions in my previous post and, as a perhaps relatively lightweight intellect, I still cannot get past these questions that may lead to the acceptance of the existence of the biblical god.

Adam and Eve were the victims of an inbuilt weakness that had been placed there by god. They were put into a no win situation in the Garden of Eden. They succumbed, as god knew they would.

So god introduced the concept of DEATH and, to my mind, this is where the control of mankind begins. No death = no fear = no real reason to believe in the supernatural that saves us from that extinction.

Death = fear of extinction = a desperate search for avoidance of this inevitability.

Enter............god ........with lifeboat!! Results = millions of takers who are willing to ignore or overlook the fact that the lifeboat captain dumped them into the sea in the first place.

The above is, to me a fiction and such events never occurred. However, to believers this is what they are accepting as real events.

Is death really so frightening?

I accepted Zen Buddhist precepts in 1983. Zen is a philosophy, not a religion. It does not believe in a deity, but in living in the present moment as much as possible - i.e. living life to the full with complete mindfulness.

Buddhism does offer the concept of rebirth - that our 'spark' or essence without our characteristics is passed onto a new body. I'm not so sure myself & the Buddha (if he existed at all) is said to have declared that you should believe nothing (not even what he said), without first proving it to yourself.

If eternity exists, it exists within us and when you still your mind, you may catch a glimpse of the stillness within. But, hell, that's just my take on it & I certainly would not start proselytising on something that may be something that happens in my mind and may not be real anyway.

It keeps me cantered and happy and I appreciate this life - which many believers don't seem to do. I also believe we should seek our own salvation and not hand it over to some outside agent.

ENOUGH ALREADY!! I can see many of you nodding off.

[Thor]

As I said on another post, Good things can happen to unbelievers, and bad things can happen to Christians. This does not disprove the existence of God, or the power of prayer.

We can't DISPROVE the existence of "God". How many times do we have to say this? We CAN, however, disprove the effectiveness of prayer. In fact, WE HAVE! http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health....html?_r=1

You pointed to the 9/11 disaster to demonstrate that prayer doesn't work, since there must've been many Christians among those who died. But you're failing to acknowledge that while many people died, many others also got away.

Yes, many people escaped the disaster. And people like you see a plane crash where three people survive and 197 die, and point to the three people as evidence of "God's" miraculous powers.

Pardon me while I vomit.

And no, I don't believe everyone that got out did so because they prayed. But God answered those who did pray.

He did, huh? I have no doubt many people on the doomed airliners were praying. I guess "God's" answer to their pleas was, "No, you can have a fiery, violent death in a plane that disintegrates as it plows through a building." What a guy!

And others, including non-believers, got out because their time on this earth wasn't up.

This statement is a steaming pile of unsubstantiated bullshit.

I can tell you that some 12 members from one church in New Jersey who were supposed to be at the World Trade Center on the morning of 9/11 never made it for one reason or another. Some were out sick, others didn't make it because of car trouble, etc.

So what? I have no doubt there are people who had planned to be on one of those planes, or had planned to be in the WTC that day. But, for whatever reason, they were fortunate NOT to be there. This is a fortunate occurrence. What about the people who weren't so fortunate? What about the people who WERE there? "God" didn't think they were worth saving?

God has many ways of saving and protecting his people.

As he has demonstrated quite clearly throughout history... (plagues, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, tornadoes, the Holocaust, etc, etc...)

So here's how it breaks down:

Thousands of believers got out of the WTC because they prayed.

And what evidence do you have to support this bullshit statement?

Others were protected by God, because he didn't allow them to even get to the towers that morning.

More bullshit. Evidence?

Of the believers that died, some, as you put it, may have not been true Christians.

Ah, yes... the "No true Scotsman" fallacy...

Others may have been true Christians, but prayed without faith. Even if a person is a good Christian, praying without faith will yield no results.

There's more bullshit here than in a cow pasture...

And of course there's the many believers who didn't take time to pray as they were too horrified.

So... because they were too horrified to pray, your deity didn't help them? You mean your deity didn't know these people wanted help?

I'm assuming that some atheists and unbelievers got out safely as well, but that's because their time on this earth wasn't up.

You're just pulling stuff out of your ass, aren't you?

The algorithm in God's work is very complex, and he sometimes uses unbelievers for his own reasons and purposes.

And you know this..... how?

Being a Christian does not put you in some sort of untouchable club. It's having true faith that will keep you protected.

Bullshit. Many people who have had "true faith" have died horrible deaths. I'm reminded of the Columbine massacre where one of the killers asked a student if she believed in Jesus. She proudly (or stupidly) said yes. The scumbag then gunned her down. Where was "God's protection" for her?

This is God's promise. However, if God feels that your time on this earth is up, then your time on this earth is up.

More unsubtantiated bullshit.

[AngelThMan]

I can't help but notice that your examples of prayer is indestinguishable from random coincidence. How can you profess a power of prayer that doesn't do anything that wouldn't happen anyway?

What you have to understand is that I didn't bring up 9/11 to begin with. Entropist brought it up to demonstrate that prayer doesn't work, and therefore God doesn't exist. I was just countering his claim by providing possible scenarios that could've occurred during that tragedy which do not contradict or deny the existence of God and the power of prayer.

I can't be sure of what happened on 9/11 since I wasn't there and I'm not God. But to say that 9/11 shows there's no God is jumping the gun.

[Minimalist]

You're right, Angel.


There was no god long before 9-11.