Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
(February 22, 2015 at 1:02 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote:
(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote:
The Book of Mormon actually is translated into Arabic and in it, God is called Allah; so it is not the name, it is the message, My claim is that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are all one consistent and cohesive message from the time of Moses (who also wrote of things before his time) until now.
Having read the Koran, I personally do not see it as a continuation of the same theme as exists in the Bible even though Muslims claim to honor the prophets of the Bible... it is not the same story at all.
One major difference (at least in LDS theology) is the belief that we are free agents; able to choose our path; and it is this for which we will be judged.
As I understand it, whenever a Muslin attempts anything, it is always "Insha'Allah"... God willing, suggesting that God has already pre-determined everything. To me, this does not square with observation. People in the world make choices all of the time that are actually in spite of God's will. And then there is the method of spreading the message... Jihad. (As LDS, I accept no responsibility for the Crusades (if that were something you were about to bring up.)) Jihad is ongoing, as are honor killings. Consider... would you want to live under Sharia law? Sharia law is the message now and in heaven. I was having a discussion in another area concerning the nature of law whether laws on earth were all subjective (and they are) and whether God's law, being as eternal as He is and which He Himself abides is objective (which it is) God's eternal law is designed that if followed, will yield the greatest happiness. God's law applies equally to all His children and the only thing we need to be concerned about is obedience. Observation would indicate that Sharia law is not equitable, neither does it demonstrate charity (which is a required characteristic for someone who desires to become one with God for the sake of salvation). Salvation requires oneness with God and oneness requires the characteristic of charity. It seems to me that Sharia law is about compulsion, not charity. I hear about merciful Allah, but I don't see it in the practice of Islam. They are much too violent.
The core message of Christianity is that Jesus Christ suffered, died, was buried and rose again on the third day thus paying the penalty demanded by justice for a broken law (which we broke) on condition of repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands by someone in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost (who gives inspiration and helps us endure in repentance until the end of our days). Past that, one should be prepared to go to the temple and be sealed to wife and family for time and all eternity. This sealing power... this priesthood is on the earth again today as it was in the days of Peter to whom God gave the power to seal on earth and in heaven. It now resides in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The gospel of Jesus Christ is once again restored to the earth with all the authority and ordinances required for salvation and eternal life.
In LDS theology and doctrine, eternal life is the message.
You told me why you prefer the religion over Islam. You didn't tell me why your God was real and theirs was not. You did point out that in the Muslim translation of The Book of Mormon that God is written as "Allah", and that's because the word for God in that language is Allah. The same is true for any number of monotheistic religious books printed in the native language of the country they are sold. But if all you noticed was the translation of the word "god" from english to Arabic then you missed a few details. The two religions of Islam and LDS/Christianity are not compatible with regards to where non-followers go. It may be true that people of your following are more optimistic on the fate of those who don't share the same belief, but none of that has anything to do with the undeniable fact that the doctrines written in the Quran and the Bible make it explicitly clear that one is right and the other is wrong.
You may think otherwise, and that's fine. But I want to put a flag in the ground, right here, and make sure you acknowledge that all of that need not matter so long as a literal interpretation of the texts exists, and there are people who believe it.
If a Martyr is willing to strap a bomb to his chest and blow your family up for not following the literal word of the Quran, they are doing this because they are convinced that their God is real, and yours is a fake.
I ask you again. How do you know that their God is not real. Do not mention to me their religion again. I am asking you specifically about your God and theirs. They have a God that they believe to be real; they are so sure as to be willing to commit suicide in some cases in order to demonstrate their faith. I'm not asking you to commit suicide, but I am asking you to tell me how you can be as sure as one who will and did commit suicide. How do you know that their Allah is the wrong God and that you, yourself, should not be doing as they do?
I felt I gave you the best answer I could, but I'll repeat myself. We both, you and I, do understand that the existence of God cannot be proved. The only things we can know about Him are what He condescend to reveal to us through His prophets. I happen to accept the reported eye witness accounts of these prophets who have reported the same story over the millennia. I find that story to be consistent and coherent. The information I understand from these prophets tells me that God is indeed concerned about us as His children. It tells me that God is doing His best to teach us how to how to live joyful lives through obedience to His laws without violating our agency.
I reject the interpretation of the God of Islam, because I see what you just pointed out as being the reason that their interpretation of God is wrong; i.e.... they are willing to strap bomb themselves and kill other people. As I tried to point out, the only determining factor about the nature of God that we have is what He has revealed in terms of what He expects of us. This expectation tells us how He feels about all of His children. From all the scriptures I have access to in the LDS canon, the message is that God is assisting us on a path of progression, not because we deserve it, but because He loves us.
The evidence from the Koran concerning God and His expectation, stands alone. That book is not connected in any way to other scripture. The things Islam says about the nature of God are demonstrated in their willingness to violence rather than charity. Accordingly, they interpret their God to be controlling as in, He would disallow agency. They interpret Him and being completely intolerant of anyone outside of Islam which would deny the purposes that I as LDS understand as His love and concern for all of His children. Their God's attitude would seem to be that we are not here to learn and progress through the use of our agency, that it is rather to be compliant without any opportunity for understanding, but simply abide Sharia law regardless of how you feel about it. My God has granted agency; theirs has not.
Muslims may claim that Allah is merciful and that Islam is a religion of peace, but the actions of some of their adherents belie that. That the so called majority of Muslims are peaceful is something I also challenge on the grounds that within their own culture and within the strictures of Sharia law, they do absolutely nothing to curtail the activities of those who murder. In Christianity there is a saying that by their fruits, ye shall know them. The same goes for the interpretation of the nature of God. The actions of the individual demonstrate his attitude toward and understanding of the nature of God and His purposes for us. And this applies to all of God's children, not just Muslims.
You demand (as If I owed you something) that I demonstrate somehow "How do you know that their God is not real"? A coupe of things... I could care less about the flag you threw to the ground, I am not subservient that you should talk down to me; and you are at all times able to reject anything I say... that is your agency which I respect. a Muslim would not respect your agency. Also your demanded that I "Do not" mention Islam again as if to say I 'must', or I am somehow obligated to supply you with an answer on your terms. I'll tell you again, God can only be known through what He condescends to reveal and through the actions of His followers. One, then must make an evaluation of the scriptural accounts. The information provided concerning God is entirely different within the two canons. It is only through this that the "reality" of God can be evaluated and determined.
Once again... it is the message that tells you what you need to know about the nature and reality of God, assuming you want to know anything about God at all. Your info doesn't tell me anything about you religious persuasion. So, since you have not accurately or sufficiently defined that so that others can know where you are coming from, I assume you are an atheist on the grounds that this is an atheist forum and unless you identify yourself otherwise, that is the assumption I'll make. If I am correct, I then question the purpose of this exchange. I have admitted that God cannot be proven to the satisfaction of any atheist. That is a matter of faith (based on reason) that atheists reject out of hand. So I wonder, what are your reasons or motivations for asking about any God?
I'm not asking you to prove your God. Notice the subtle difference in this request.
Neither you, nor I believe in Allah and yet there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Of those Muslims, many of them will say that you are praying to the wrong God and the path you've chosen, while noble to you, earns you the same fate as an unbeliever like me. Notice that this doesn't concern you in the least. If they're right, neither you or myself will be in the company of God after this life and neither one of us seem to care. Personally, I don't think any of you have good reasons to believe that any one of you is actually following any form of divine command, and so the Muslims and their ideas concerning my eternal destination do not worry me in the least. Sureky youve considered the fact that there are more options other than belief in the God that ether-ore thinks is right-or not. There are lots of other options. Im not asking you to prove your God. I know you don't follow your religion simply because it makes you feel good. You do and everyone else follow your religions because you have an idea in your head regarding the existence of a specific God and you are certain that what you are doing is what they want you to do. What I'm asking you to tell me is-How can you know that the others are wrong? What if they're right, and you've devoted your life to a folly? What can you say to the Jihadist Muslim who says that the way you've chosen to live your life is wrong? Why are they wrong? How do you know? Remember, they have faith as well, but in the end, either somebody is going to be right or somebody is seriously going to be wrong. Why should I be concerned about any of this?
(February 22, 2015 at 11:41 am)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I'm not asking you to prove your God. Notice the subtle difference in this request.
Neither you, nor I believe in Allah and yet there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Of those Muslims, many of them will say that you are praying to the wrong God and the path you've chosen, while noble to you, earns you the same fate as an unbeliever like me. Notice that this doesn't concern you in the least. If they're right, neither you or myself will be in the company of God after this life and neither one of us seem to care. Personally, I don't think any of you have good reasons to believe that any one of you is actually following any form of divine command, and so the Muslims and their ideas concerning my eternal destination do not worry me in the least. Sureky youve considered the fact that there are more options other than belief in the God that ether-ore thinks is right-or not. There are lots of other options. Im not asking you to prove your God. I know you don't follow your religion simply because it makes you feel good. You do and everyone else follow your religions because you have an idea in your head regarding the existence of a specific God and you are certain that what you are doing is what they want you to do. What I'm asking you to tell me is-How can you know that the others are wrong? What if they're right, and you've devoted your life to a folly? What can you say to the Jihadist Muslim who says that the way you've chosen to live your life is wrong? Why are they wrong? How do you know? Remember, they have faith as well, but in the end, either somebody is going to be right or somebody is seriously going to be wrong. Why should I be concerned about any of this?
What if the Muslims are right, does he then change his tune on sharia law, suicide bombings, and beheadings, does he then worship that god? I think that's always an interesting question to pose to believers who are arguing the superiority of their religion over another.
That's my entire point. I want to know how he reconciles Muslim certainty with his own. Either every Muslim in the world is lying, or they're mistaken about the authenticity of their God. Since either-ore's God cannot be "also right", the direct implication is that he either-ore has not considered the Muslim position and thereby cannot exclude it or any other competing religion from being the correct one, or he can demonstrate the authenticity of his God and can successfully refute any and all imposters. In the former scenario, his credibility is completely zero and is in no position to speak of his God with any degree of certainty. If the latter is true, the rational move for us and all others would be to accept his position and become Mormons.
(February 22, 2015 at 2:04 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: That's my entire point. I want to know how he reconciles Muslim certainty with his own. Either every Muslim in the world is lying, or they're mistaken about the authenticity of their God. Since either-ore's God cannot be "also right", the direct implication is that he either-ore has not considered the Muslim position and thereby cannot exclude it or any other competing religion from being the correct one, or he can demonstrate the authenticity of his God and can successfully refute any and all imposters. In the former scenario, his credibility is completely zero and is in no position to speak of his God with any degree of certainty. If the latter is true, the rational move for us and all others would be to accept his position and become Mormons.
Ether, I think TRS's position can be summed up by the aphorism, Once you understand why you reject all other deities, you'll understand why I reject yours.
