Why I'm Still a Christian

[Jenny A]

You are discussing the natural evolution of the human species. That's not what I'm discussing here. I'm saying that at some point in time, maybe 6,000 or so years ago, God chose one man and one woman and gave them souls. They were then spiritual beings and held accountable for their actions. They sinned and failed the test. I don't know if God, after that event, gave souls to all humans living at that time or just gave souls to all humans born after that event. It really doesn't matter to me.

* * * *

If Adam and Eve were the first two humans to possess a soul, and thus be able to experience God's eternal life, then all humans who have a soul, which is everyone now, are descended spiritually from them. If those two had children, then Jesus could have been physically descended from them. But, Jesus wasn't discussing genetics, of which they had no knowledge at the time. Jesus was discussing our salvation, on which our natural evolution has no bearing.

Okay, so you believe the stuff in the Bible about god making Adam out of dirt and Eve out of his rib is made up. But you believe that god gave two special humans the first souls because why? You might reasonably argue that the story is metaphorical. But you can't get to two humans chosen to have the first two souls that way. It's just plain making up your own new story. Did you have a personal revelation? Or did you just like the idea?

The mechanism God used was by special creation of our souls. As for all those humans living before that time, they were simply just the mostly highly evolved of the creatures on earth. They did things that we would consider "bad", but would not be held accountable by God any more than apes or lions. This is because they were no more spiritual beings than those were. They were not able to experience eternal life with God, as we are. Keep in mind that I'm not spouting doctrine here, but expressing some of my own thoughts about how things may have come about. In my mind, what makes humans different than all other animals, besides being the most highly naturally developed, is the possession of a spiritual nature.

Okay, in your mind, humans are the only spiritual beings. What do you mean by spiritual? I think ritual, meditation, inner reflection, wonder, awe. You appear to think a sense of morality, i.e. knowing right from wrong.

In either case I think you are wrong about people being set apart from nature. Primates and other animals that interact socially do seem to have some sense of right and wrong, mercy, and justice. It's not as developed as ours, but the beginnings are there.

The same can be said of ritual. Anyone with a dog knows dogs love rituals.

Inner reflection is harder to assess but I'd guess that brighter animals may have the beginnings of that too.

It's evolution all over again.

[Lek]

Even if that story weren't as far fetched as Alpha Centauri, it still doesn't compute with an omniscient being. There could have been no test, since that being had to know the outcome before setting up the rules. Otherwise it wouldn't be omniscient.

How do you know what computes with an omniscient being? You don't know because you're not omniscient.

In fact, that story doesn't compute on many levels. We, as a species, are nothing but a chicken fart in the chain of an evolving planets. If we were on the clock, we arrived a few minutes before midnight - and that's being generous. So far we've clocked off about 5 percent of the time dynosaurs walked the earth. That's how important we are in the history of our planet.

How do you know how important we are in the history of the planet or the universe for that matter? How do you determine what is more important to the world? How could you argue that man hasn't done more to affect the world than any other creature on the planet? What part of the universe is more important than we are?

So there's some god, omniscient, but at the same time not, who chooses to show up a minute before midnight to create his own two Sims and have a little playing session with them. Why? Because he got bored?

Here you go again telling me what an omniscient being should and shouldn't do.

---

Okay, so you believe the stuff in the Bible about god making Adam out of dirt and Eve out of his rib is made up. But you believe that god gave two special humans the first souls because why? You might reasonably argue that the story is metaphorical. But you can't get to two humans chosen to have the first two souls that way. It's just plain making up your own new story. Did you have a personal revelation? Or did you just like the idea?

I heard the peal of thunder and was blinded by a flash of light, and then a voice from heaven revealed it to me. It happens to me all the time. Actually, I was thinking it over in the light of my new found acceptance of evolution and the idea came to me. In the light of scripture it seems pretty reasonable to me.

Okay, in your mind, humans are the only spiritual beings. What do you mean by spiritual? I think ritual, meditation, inner reflection, wonder, awe. You appear to think a sense of morality, i.e. knowing right from wrong.

In either case I think you are wrong about people being set apart from nature. Primates and other animals that interact socially do seem to have some sense of right and wrong, mercy, and justice. It's not as developed as ours, but the beginnings are there.

The same can be said of ritual. Anyone with a dog knows dogs love rituals.

Inner reflection is harder to assess but I'd guess that brighter animals may have the beginnings of that too.

It's evolution all over again.[/align]

No. None of that stuff is what I mean by man being a spiritual being. It's not in how we behave, like rituals or whatever, but in our essence. There is a part of our being, which we refer to as our soul, which is made in the image and likeness of God, which no other earthly creature possesses. You are familiar with christian doctrine and should already be aware of this Jenny - the flesh and the spirit.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If someone wrongs you and he comes to you asking for forgiveness, will you forgive him? If you do will you keep him indebted to you for the rest of his life or tell him to forget it?

Actually, what I'd do is go fetch my son, completely innocent, and make the guy who wronged me watch me nail my son to the cross and feel guilty for it, so that he has to worship me for life for my beneficence. Sounds fair to me, am I right?

[Lek]

If someone wrongs you and he comes to you asking for forgiveness, will you forgive him? If you do will you keep him indebted to you for the rest of his life or tell him to forget it?

Actually, what I'd do is go fetch my son, completely innocent, and make the guy who wronged me watch me nail my son to the cross and feel guilty for it, so that he has to worship me for life for my beneficence. Sounds fair to me, am I right?

Sigh....Yeah, you got it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Yeah, I <sighed> a long time ago.

[Anomalocaris]

Actually, what I'd do is go fetch my son, completely innocent, and make the guy who wronged me watch me nail my son to the cross and feel guilty for it, so that he has to worship me for life for my beneficence. Sounds fair to me, am I right?

Sigh....Yeah, you got it.

Very Christian of you to pretend a mere sigh is enough to make the ridiculous into the sublime, but only in the case of your ridiculous deity.

So when every layer of bullshit is stripped away, the only "bedrock" of your religion, the only "bedrock" it ever had, is a wishful sigh. The sigh of a not very honorable wish either.

---

If someone wrongs you and he comes to you asking for forgiveness, will you forgive him? If you do will you keep him indebted to you for the rest of his life or tell him to forget it?

Actually, what I'd do is go fetch my son, completely innocent, and make the guy who wronged me watch me nail my son to the cross and feel guilty for it, so that he has to worship me for life for my beneficence. Sounds fair to me, am I right?

But remember, unblemished goodness as I am, my son is me and therefore is guilty of my own sin, committed in my own sinlessness, of course.

[psychoslice]

I was a Christian for about 16 years, but as time went by I started to ask question that the church didn't want me to ask, they said to wait till we get to heaven and we will know everything. When I left the church they were praying for me, not realizing that I was much more happier, they all kept together never adventuring outside they beliefs. Whatever I told them they would come back with, the devil is talking through you, they were so narrow minded it made me sick.

I went back to the church just recently just to see how I would handle it, as I liked singing the hymns and playing the organ, but I just couldn't do it, I felt like I was deceiving myself, like a child that has grown up and no more can believe in Santa clues, and his friends who still believe cannot understand why he doesn't.

[robvalue]

It's terrible Lek that Christianity has managed to convince you that you are doomed just for being a human.

Don Baker puts it best, "Religion breaks your leg then sells you a crutch."

Christianity works really hard to get people to despise themselves, to find them unworthy, dirty and in need of punishment because of some vague interaction between God and their ancestors.

The concept of "sin" is entirely a religious construct. It is not real. It's like an imaginary debt has been given to you when you are born, "You owe God 500,000 sin points." There is no debt, no one deserves to be punished just for being born. And any "God" which thinks so is not worthy of worship anyway. It has all the hallmarks of a scam, because that's what it is.

Whoever indoctrinated you into this religion is the one which put this "sin" idea into your head. I hope one day you can just cast it out. Because it's not real.

[Anomalocaris]

Don Baker puts it best, "Religion breaks your leg then sells you a crutch."

And tell you you will burn in hell, and some time actually burn you at the stake, if your legs fail to break under religion's hammering, or if you chose a different prosthesis than their crude crutch.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Indeed, Rob. Christianity is about inculcating a self-loathing in believers. There's nothing that pays like guilt.