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March 18, 2015 at 7:18 pm (This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 7:37 pm by Lek.)
(March 18, 2015 at 5:13 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: Lek, come on. You're more intelligent than this. To say that Jesus is god because the bible says so is to commit circular reasoning. Surely you see the flaw in that way of thinking.
The point of this thread wasn't to indicate that Jesus was actually demon-possessed or anything like that, it was to emphasize that you can't know that and -- like you -- must resort to taking the authors' word for it. I believe you've discussed the topic of why the bible is unreliable in another thread.
Try to look at it this way: if you have to take the word of some anonymous writers about something that was not documented in any other source, how valid is your belief? Just why would you even consider taking it as true if you hadn't been taught to believe it at an early age?
Do you believe anything that hasn't been proven? If there exists a supernatural being in a supernatural existence, you're not going to prove it by natural means. If there is a God, then he can show himself to us in an unnatural way. If he has shown me and I am convinced that he is real, then I'll believe. When you look at the world do you just see a bunch of matter that is exists in various forms? When I look I see matter that acts as if somebody put it together and gave it a purpose. We all view that evidence differently. As for christianity and the bible, I believe it because I believe that's the way God has led me. I'm not a fundamentalist or one to interpret the scriptures in a strict wooden fashion, but I study them and take from them what the Spirit reveals to me.
I came into this forum thinking that I could put forth some science and historical sources that would convince an unbeliever that God and christianity are true, but found out I couldn't. At that point of realization, I had to make a choice as to whether or not to dump it all based on that realization. The problem is, I can't do it because whenever I ask God for direction, I become convinced that I'm right. Every time I examine the natural world I live in I become convinced I'm right.
One other reason that I remain a christian is that I believe God reveals himself in his people. If you stay in this forum enough, you may come to believe all the talk about how evil christians are and how atheists are actually more moral, which I don't buy. I see christians who are filled with the Spirit and living under a power that I consider beyond natural, serving God and their fellow human beings. I just see it emanating from them. That's not what you perceive, but I do, and that's evidence to me. I'm an adult now and I'm trying to experience every challenge to my faith that I can. Don't tell me I only believe because I was raised a christian. Faith evolves. I started out as an anxious catholic and have become a more relaxed "plain" christian and I assume I'll continue to evolve as I search for continuing revelation.
(March 18, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: I don't see how assuming the Bible historically reliable and assuming the supernatural is helpful. If Jesus was an agent of the devil he could do all the things he is said to have done and said. The devil could easily deceive the followers of Christ like Paul. I even have a supernatural explanation of why Yahweh would let this happen, to test the faith of the Jews.
This is like the supernatural version of Plantinga's EAAN(Evolutionary argument against naturalism). It's a Supernatural argument against Christian presuppositionalism.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
(March 18, 2015 at 7:30 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: Hey, Lek. You haven't replied to this.
(March 18, 2015 at 6:35 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: I don't see how assuming the Bible historically reliable and assuming the supernatural is helpful. If Jesus was an agent of the devil he could do all the things he is said to have done and said. The devil could easily deceive the followers of Christ like Paul. I even have a supernatural explanation of why Yahweh would let this happen, to test the faith of the Jews.
This is like the supernatural version of Plantinga's EAAN(Evolutionary argument against naturalism). It's a Supernatural argument against Christian presuppositionalism.
Maybe. Hopefully, my latest post on this thread is sufficient to explain my point of view.
March 18, 2015 at 8:56 pm (This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 9:23 pm by Pizza.)
It is not. It isn't even irrelevant to my argument. You just beg the question by assuming God isn't letting Satan (I almost said Stan, ha!) deceive you for some good God deems greater then your personal salvation. This is my problem with Christianity even if you assume supernaturalism you still have a self-defeater namely that you can't give a good reason to believe you are not being deceived by the devil. Christianity leads to global skepticism.
So, if anything you've helped make my case for me.
The point I want to make is Biblical theism has a self-defeater because in the OT Yahweh had Satan test Job. If the scriptural data is to be trusted(as Christians say it should) it is Yahweh's character to test his creations faith. What better way to test his creations then to have Satan create a false religion called Christianity with a false prophet?
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
March 18, 2015 at 10:23 pm (This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 10:27 pm by The Reality Salesman01.)
(March 18, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 18, 2015 at 3:38 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: Ha ha ha....I love this forum. http://youtu.be/airT-m9LcoY
So start being kind. Answer me kindly.
Huh? I've answered you "kindly" several
times. I gave up on reasoning with you long ago. As soon as you "objectively" used your confirmation bias to convince you that you had conducted some sort of honest inquiry into your beliefs, I wrote you off. You have convinced me that you not only don't care about truth, you're incapable of giving it a relevant definition.
As an aside,the post you responded to had nothing to do with you. You are not an example of something that I love about this forum. In my opinion, you are pathetic, naive, unreasonable and gullible. I think you're an intellectually dishonest child who enjoys being the center of debate but is afraid to put his name on it. Even
Drich is consistent., I get the feeling you're only out for the attention . Nothing you say has been worth listening to. You're just a confused nitwit that is compelled to seek out opportunities to disagree with the very individuals who teach you to think. Welcome to AF.org, and welcome to reality.
(March 18, 2015 at 8:56 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: It is not. It isn't even irrelevant to my argument. You just beg the question by assuming God isn't letting Satan (I almost said Stan, ha!) deceive you for some good God deems greater then your personal salvation. This is my problem with Christianity even if you assume supernaturalism you still have a self-defeater namely that you can't give a good reason to believe you are not being deceived by the devil. Christianity leads to global skepticism.
So, if anything you've helped make my case for me.
The point I want to make is Biblical theism has a self-defeater because in the OT Yahweh had Satan test Job. If the scriptural data is to be trusted(as Christians say it should) it is Yahweh's character to test his creations faith. What better way to test his creations then to have Satan create a false religion called Christianity with a false prophet?
God didn't allow Satan to deceive Job, but allowed him to put Job through trials. If we honestly seek God, he's going to show himself to us. If your proposition is true, God has allowed countless billions to be condemned who earnestly sought him. Ain't gonna happen.
March 18, 2015 at 10:54 pm (This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 10:55 pm by Pizza.)
(March 18, 2015 at 10:43 pm)Lek Wrote:
(March 18, 2015 at 8:56 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote: It is not. It isn't even irrelevant to my argument. You just beg the question by assuming God isn't letting Satan (I almost said Stan, ha!) deceive you for some good God deems greater then your personal salvation. This is my problem with Christianity even if you assume supernaturalism you still have a self-defeater namely that you can't give a good reason to believe you are not being deceived by the devil. Christianity leads to global skepticism.
So, if anything you've helped make my case for me.
The point I want to make is Biblical theism has a self-defeater because in the OT Yahweh had Satan test Job. If the scriptural data is to be trusted(as Christians say it should) it is Yahweh's character to test his creations faith. What better way to test his creations then to have Satan create a false religion called Christianity with a false prophet?
God didn't allow Satan to deceive Job, but allowed him to put Job through trials.
Yes he did go reread Job. If God has no problem hurting people to make a point then he has no problem tricking people to make point.
Quote: If we honestly seek God, he's going to show himself to us. If your proposition is true, God has allowed countless billions to be condemned who earnestly sought him. Ain't gonna happen.
Not if Christ is a false prophet. You need to show he isn't a false prophet.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
(March 18, 2015 at 10:23 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: Huh? I've answered you "kindly" several
times. I gave up on reasoning with you long ago. As soon as you "objectively" used your confirmation bias to convince you that you had conducted some sort of honest inquiry into your beliefs, I wrote you off. You have convinced me that you not only don't care about truth, you're incapable of giving it a relevant definition.
As an aside,the post you responded to had nothing to do with you. You are not an example of something that I love about this forum. In my opinion, you are pathetic, naive, unreasonable and gullible. I think you're an intellectually dishonest child who enjoys being the center of debate but is afraid to put his name on it. Even
Drich is consistent., I get the feeling you're only out for the attention . Nothing you say has been worth listening to. You're just a confused nitwit that is compelled to seek out opportunities to disagree with the very individuals who teach you to think. Welcome to AF.org, and welcome to reality.
Actually, my remark was meant to be a humorous reply to your remark about kindness. As far as being intellectually dishonest, what do you want me to do, tell the truth or tell a lie? As far as my evaluation of you, I'll just let you speak for yourself.
(March 18, 2015 at 10:23 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote:
(March 18, 2015 at 4:54 pm)Lek Wrote: So start being kind. Answer me kindly.
Huh? I've answered you "kindly" several
times. I gave up on reasoning with you long ago. As soon as you "objectively" used your confirmation bias to convince you that you had conducted some sort of honest inquiry into your beliefs, I wrote you off. You have convinced me that you not only don't care about truth, you're incapable of giving it a relevant definition.
As an aside,the post you responded to had nothing to do with you. You are not an example of something that I love about this forum. In my opinion, you are pathetic, naive, unreasonable and gullible. I think you're an intellectually dishonest child who enjoys being the center of debate but is afraid to put his name on it. Even
Drich is consistent., I get the feeling you're only out for the attention . Nothing you say has been worth listening to. You're just a confused nitwit that is compelled to seek out opportunities to disagree with the very individuals who teach you to think. Welcome to AF.org, and welcome to reality.
Ouch, that's a little too harsh.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
March 18, 2015 at 11:03 pm (This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 11:04 pm by Lek.)
(March 18, 2015 at 10:54 pm)Pizz-atheist Wrote:
(March 18, 2015 at 10:43 pm)Lek Wrote: God didn't allow Satan to deceive Job, but allowed him to put Job through trials.
Yes he did go reread Job. If God has no problem hurting people to make a point then he has no problem tricking people to make point.
Quote: If we honestly seek God, he's going to show himself to us. If your proposition is true, God has allowed countless billions to be condemned who earnestly sought him. Ain't gonna happen.
Not if Christ is a false prophet. You need to show he isn't a false prophet.
Jesus told us to pray to God the Father. He said he would not lose any of those the Father gave to him. If I go to the Father for confirmation, and the Father wants me to be with him, why would he lead me back to Satan? Since you haven't personally done most of the countless experiments to prove all the scientific conclusions that we accept as fact, how do know that there isn't a huge conspiracy among scientists to deceive the rest of the human race?
