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Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
#61
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm sorry, but almost everything here is absolute garbage so far as refuting the first-cause argument.

shhhhh.... don't worry... the first-cause argument is garbage, too! Tongue
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#62
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm sorry, but almost everything here is absolute garbage so far as refuting the first-cause argument.

Argh... Okay, I didn't want to get into this discussion but I will make a brief post. I haven't really bothered to read through the previous posts about Kalam so I don't know if anyone has already addressed these issues.

If the argument is that everything that exists has to have a cause and the theist insists that the cause is God, this is how I would respond.

#1. For the sake of brevity, I will just accept the claim that "everything must have a cause" and avoid going down that path entirely.

#2. I will also accept the claim that the universe has a cause. However, if everything MUST have a cause, then what created God? What created the entity that created God? You get the idea. This creates an infinite regress and the only option the theist has is to claim that God didn't need a cause, which completely invalidates his entire argument. You can't claim that everything must have a cause and then say, "Oh wait, everything except...." That is special pleading. Kalam is based on a fundamentally flawed idea and is not a sound logical argument.
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#63
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
Welcome GH

You're wasting your time with these chumps. Lets cut to the chase- talk to Minimalist and be done with it. Big Grin
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:

"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."

For context, this is the previous verse:

"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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#64
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm sorry, but almost everything here is absolute garbage so far as refuting the first-cause argument.
Absolutely correct. They just keep knocking down straw men. When someone points to the error of their ways (trying to translate the Scholastic tradition into the language of modern analytic philosophy), they just prop the straw men back up and start over.
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#65
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Mezmo! Wrote:
(March 20, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm sorry, but almost everything here is absolute garbage so far as refuting the first-cause argument.
Absolutely correct. They just keep knocking down straw men. When someone points to the error of their ways (trying to translate the Scholastic tradition into the language of modern analytic philosophy), they just prop the straw men back up and start over.

Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion other than nuh-uh? Which are the strawmen that you are speaking of? Would you please elaborate on why you think the arguments thus far are garbage? What, exactly, is the error of our ways?

A little hint about discussion forums, it's hard to carry on the discussion of all you have to say is "you're wrong."
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great

PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join! --->There's an app and everything!<---
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#66
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
Delicate & Mezmo: Would either of you be willing to elaborate on your position, and why you disagree with the majority of the members posting in this thread? It's not very convincing when you make simplistic one-line claims that are unsubstantiated by well-reasoned arguments. (unlike the rational case presented by those deconstructing the Kalam argument)
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#67
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Mezmo! Wrote: Absolutely correct. They just keep knocking down straw men. When someone points to the error of their ways (trying to translate the Scholastic tradition into the language of modern analytic philosophy), they just prop the straw men back up and start over.
That you find the Scholastic tradition illuminating or helpful is your problem, not ours.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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#68
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 17, 2015 at 10:13 pm)GriffinHunter Wrote: I am 18 years old, raised as a Christian, and now beginning to ask questions and really figure out what I believe for myself. At the moment, I'm coming from basically a Christian perspective, but I am open to being convinced otherwise and looking to discuss the issues with someone.

To be honest, I'm a bit intimidated by the environment of the forum here. My fear is that if I try to have a serious, full-scale, in-depth discussion in this medium, I'll quickly be overwhelmed and bombarded. I don't want to be unable to reply adequately simply because of the quantity of messages by people disagreeing with me. I'd rather be able to discuss fairly back-and-forth, without being terrifically outnumbered. (which would make it impractical to adequately respond to everyone)

To that end, I'm wondering if anyone would be interested in starting a 1-on-1 correspondence with me? (hopefully it is not too out of place to request that) I'm looking for someone who is willing to be reasonable and civil, and help talk through the questions and issues I'm wondering about.

Looking forward to hearing from you guys!

Well i am only a bit older than you but i pretty much even before the age of 18 i was an atheist. So what really turned me atheist is i wanted to learn about the world and between the bible and actual information i choose fact over faith and even reading the bible made me realize a lot of things. On a scale for atheism i am a pretty damn strong one. At this point pretty much if there is a god which in my world view is highly unlikely for me to actually think about. It would be a god that just came along just to watch everything when the universe came into existence by natural means and pretty much doesn't care about us or anyone. Because lets be honest there is other life out there we just haven't found it and or they just do not care or even its probably not sentient.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today. 


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#69
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 20, 2015 at 9:06 pm)GriffinHunter Wrote: Delicate & Mezmo: Would either of you be willing to elaborate on your position, and why you disagree with the majority of the members posting in this thread? It's not very convincing when you make simplistic one-line claims that are unsubstantiated by well-reasoned arguments. (unlike the rational case presented by those deconstructing the Kalam argument)
Pfft, I don't know why you're trying to engage them. They obviously have no idea between the two of them.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#70
RE: Tentatively Christian; looking for a reasonable discussion
(March 18, 2015 at 6:36 am)Aractus Wrote: Ok right, so Min has evidence when he claims that Jesus was a myth does he?

Proving beyond a doubt that Jesus was a myth is a nearly impossible thing to do because like all things with history, you can't really prove what happened but rather your goal is to determine what most likely happened.
I personally think that it more likely that Jesus was a real man in the 1st century that developed a small following that later mythizied his character. The reason I think this is because of the birth stories in Matthew and Luke. Both seem to have these badly cobbled stories that are placing his birth in bethelehem and his life in Nazareth. If the story was wholly made up then why would they not simple place his whole early life in bethelehem?

(March 20, 2015 at 8:53 pm)Mezmo! Wrote:
(March 20, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Delicate Wrote: I'm sorry, but almost everything here is absolute garbage so far as refuting the first-cause argument.
Absolutely correct. They just keep knocking down straw men. When someone points to the error of their ways (trying to translate the Scholastic tradition into the language of modern analytic philosophy), they just prop the straw men back up and start over.

I call sock puppet.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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