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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:42 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 4:48 pm by Smaug.)
Quote:Fear of death isn't as hard to override as you seem to think. All it takes is the devaluing of one's existence. Constant struggle can do that easily.
Well, it's obviously not a normal, median state. And it depends on what struggle do you mean. If we're talking of a terminally ill patient or a deeply depressed person that may be it. But if we're talking about, say, people at war (that I've mentioned above) it's not a general rule. Even after months in wet, rat-infested trenches literaly filled with a smell of death people still wanted to live. And note that I don't as much mean some abstract fear death but more an almost animalistic fear of immediate death.
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:42 pm
(March 23, 2015 at 4:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't know whether this is relevant, but I don't fear death because I'm desperately depressed. I'd welcome it. I've wished that I'd get a terminal disease so that I could die and it wouldn't be my fault. I stay alive only because of what my death would do to others. It's very sad, but I crave death.
Been there, done that...but I forgot to get the t-shirt.
Just remind yourself that you don't actually crave death. You crave a stable life, and death appears to be the only viable alternative. Stability isn't entirely beyond your reach, however. As insurmountable as it seems, you can learn to manage your depression and live a relatively normal life.
I say this to you and anyone else reading, I am always open for a PM for anyone wanting to discuss this kind of stuff.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:45 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 4:46 pm by robvalue.)
FNM: Thank you  You are right, I would much rather have a happy life than be dead. But the former seems out of reach, perhaps permanently. Ironically I can imagine a world in my head, with no effort at all, where I would be blissfully happy all the time, just like these "gods" could have made things for me/us if they were real. I appreciate the offer, thank you I'll bear it in mind. Yes, I've been learning to manage by depression for a long time. I'm much better than I was. Much, much better.
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:52 pm
(March 23, 2015 at 4:42 pm)Smaug Wrote: Well, it's obviously not a normal, median state. And it depends on what struggle do you mean. If we're talking of a terminally ill patient that may be it. But if we're talking about, say, people at war (that I've mentioned above) it's not a general rule. Even after months in wet, rat-infested trenches literaly filled with a smell of death people still wanted to live.
If by "normal" you mean "popular," I agree.
I'm referring to the internal struggle. When your entire existence feels like you're just treading water and struggling to stay afloat, succumbing to oblivion becomes a tempting and peaceful proposition. Years of mental anguish can lead one to yearn for death, and I dare say that has nothing to do with being brainwashed or a fool.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:54 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 4:54 pm by robvalue.)
(March 23, 2015 at 4:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, there's pain avoidance...and then there's consideration of ones own mortality. I think sometimes "fear of death" is taken to mean one or the other -often enough exclusively- without any real footnotes on that usage.
My two cents.
Those are certainly two completely different things for me, yes. I utterly fear pain and suffering, excruciatingly so. A painless death I don't fear at all.
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:57 pm
-probably not very easy to convince yourself that any given death is painless...even if you know it would be......well, knowings one thing..believings another.
If you're really ready to tap out I have alot of ditches I need dug - and let me just say...if you check out of life before having dug my ditches...that's some fucked up, selfish shit man. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 5:02 pm by Smaug.)
(March 23, 2015 at 4:52 pm)Faith No More Wrote: (March 23, 2015 at 4:42 pm)Smaug Wrote: Well, it's obviously not a normal, median state. And it depends on what struggle do you mean. If we're talking of a terminally ill patient that may be it. But if we're talking about, say, people at war (that I've mentioned above) it's not a general rule. Even after months in wet, rat-infested trenches literaly filled with a smell of death people still wanted to live.
If by "normal" you mean "popular," I agree.
I'm referring to the internal struggle. When your entire existence feels like you're just treading water and struggling to stay afloat, succumbing to oblivion becomes a tempting and peaceful proposition. Years of mental anguish can lead one to yearn for death, and I dare say that has nothing to do with being brainwashed or a fool.
By normal I mean statistically-normal or average. Which in a non-rigorous way (and I don't speak rigoruosly here) may be equal to "popular" in some sence. Internal struggle may cause you to think of some things in more or less serious way but it's clearly not the average case. If it were we would have had suicidal majority. And I repeat that when it comes to, say, actually putting a razor against your throat people are known to panic in the very last moment often when nothing can be already done for them.
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 5:03 pm
(This post was last modified: March 23, 2015 at 5:04 pm by robvalue.)
(March 23, 2015 at 4:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: -probably not very easy to convince yourself that any given death is painless...even if you know it would be......well, knowings one thing..believings another.
If you're really ready to tap out I have alot of ditches I need dug - and let me just say...if you check out of life before having dug my ditches...that's some fucked up, selfish shit man.
Sure, almost any death is not going to be painless. I've thought about how I'd kill myself, and it's not easy coming up with something that I could physically follow through with.
OK I'll get my shovel, you can pay me with kicks to the head and crisps.
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 5:03 pm
(March 23, 2015 at 4:59 pm)Smaug Wrote: By normal I mean statistically-normal or average. Which in a non-rigorous way (and I don't speak rigoruosly here) may be equal to "popular" in some sence. Internal struggle may cause you to think of some things in more or less serious way but it's clearly not the average case. If it were we would have had suicidal majority. And I repeat that when it comes to, say, actually putting a razor against your throat people are known to panic in the very last moment often when nothing for them can be already done.
None of which gets you any closer to proving I'm a fool.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: New Testament arguments
March 23, 2015 at 5:05 pm
What a blazing return I'm making to the forum, talking about ways of killing myself. Well at least I'm on a topic where I know my stuff!
I need to beat up some little kids or something to warm up properly.
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