The Reasons why "Just Following Jesus" Doesn't work

[Chad32]

A level of control doesn't have much to do with studying it. As long as you can observe something in a testable way, and show others, you can study it. People have been trying to study the bible, and the only result has been thousands of different denominations of the same religion. Some of which have killed over those interpretations.

I came as far as I could. I think you said he was patiently waiting for me to submit to him, but I have to know he's real before I can submit to him. I need to know he's real in a way that I can show other people indisputably, and we need to have some talks before I can willingly start worshiping him. If I would ever do that at all.

We test everything through science. Like I said, it's the best method we have. We study the universe, and the results we've found doesn't aree with the bible.

I mean that I was a Christian. I was raised that way, though we were liberal to moderate. not Fundies.

One sign that a system is corrupt is when the few are willing to let the majority suffer I the process of making themselves powerful. The whole reason people call Yahweh evil is that people who act like him are typically horrible people. They are not good for society at large.

If you come at the bible as if it were just words in a book then you can study it all day and not be changed. If you believe it is the word of God and that you need to submit your life to God then your life will change. See a Christian is not one by just word or works but there must be and understanding of your sin/disobedience to God then you must turn from your ways and accept that Jesus died for your sins and accept the new life that is available to you. Once you do that you enter into a relationship with Him. A Christian  personally knows God and His ways give us peace. Our lives are no longer centered on ourselves and what we think to be right but on the Truth.

By your world view we are just a bunch of atoms and some chemical reactions so how can you say that it is wrong for a few people to have power how can you make any moral statements?

Yahweh does a really bad job of convincing unbelievers to join his circle. Outside of violence. Hence all the violence in the old testament. So unless you're lucky enough to be born in it, you're unlikely to join, and unless you were threatened enough growing up, you're probably going to leave after giving it a skeptical read. You can use god to give you all the peace you want. That's not the side of christianity I have a problem with. It's the pastors who talk about killing all gay people, or the parents who want to avoid unwanted pregnancies and premarital sex, yet don't use the proven solutions that reduce such things, because it isn't abstinence only. Also can't forget the parents who let their children die of neglect because they believe in just faith healing.

We know these things are wrong because of objective data. This is why history is so important. We can look at societies and policies over the course of a century or more, and tell which countries have the best when it comes to stability, healthcare, and equality. Unbridled capitalism and theocracy isn't it.

[IATIA]

If you come at the bible as if it were just words in a book then you can study it all day and not be changed. If you believe it is the word of God and that you need to submit your life to God then your life will change.

(my bold)

Emphasized is the operative phrase. If it were truly the inspired word of god, then it should be obvious to me as a non-believer, yet it is not. I do not believe in Zeus either and there are stories and eyewitness accounts of his existence. So why do you choose your god over Zeus? The 'evidence' is the same.

[Rekeisha]

so since you read the definition in the dictionary that makes it so. Well the dictionary defines Supernatural: of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.  2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.

nature is defined as: based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature. 3. of or relating to nature or the universe:
None of these definitions says that the only things that do exist are natural.
So I want to know, since you are confined by nature, can possibly know that there is nothing outside of nature?

because nature encompasses everything. if it exists, it's a part of nature.
there cannot be anything beyond everything, because it is within the everything

definition of nature, the meaning I have in mind is bolded:

nature
[ney-cher]
noun
1.
the material world, especially as surrounding humankind and existing independently of human activities.
2.
the natural world as it exists without human beings or civilization:
In nature, wild dogs hunt in packs.
3.
the elements of the natural world, as mountains, trees, animals, or rivers:
The abandoned power plant was reclaimed by nature, covered in overgrowth and home to feral animals.
4.
natural scenery:
Tourists at the resort are surrounded by nature.
5.
the universe, with all its phenomena:
Conservation of energy is a universal law of nature.
6.
the sum total of the forces at work throughout the universe.
7.
reality, as distinguished from any effect of art:
a portrait true to nature.

so if it exists in the universe, it is natural.

that's just whst those words mean. Supernatural is doomed to be an empty set by its definition alone.

Your definition just defines the word. Just because the word non-fiction exist doesn't make fiction a mere fantasy.
here is a little link that explains what you are speaking about a little more eloquently https://youtu.be/BXlBCZ_5OYw

[Rekeisha]

Yes, we are all animals. We all have the same basic configuration. I bet you cannot take on an APE hand to hand combat!

So you are an animal, a creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed? If you are an animal then you have no rights. You can be used caged or leashed without any out cry because you are just an animal.

[Longhorn]

Rek, I'm not saying that things we call supernatural don't exist. I'm just saying the word is void of any real meaning. If your god does exist, he is, by the very definition, natural.

[Chad32]

Where do you get the idea that an animal is born to be caught and destroyed, and has no rights? Have you not heard of all the organizations dedicated to protecting animals?

[Longhorn]

Yes, we are all animals. We all have the same basic configuration. I bet you cannot take on an APE hand to hand combat!

So you are an animal, a creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed? If you are an animal then you have no rights. You can be used caged or leashed without any out cry because you are just an animal.

Yes, we are animals. That's the taxonomy. We belong in the animal kingdom.

But we do have rights. That's why they're called human rights. Being an animal doesn't exclude you from being human. Basic biology.

[Rekeisha]

If you come at the bible as if it were just words in a book then you can study it all day and not be changed. If you believe it is the word of God and that you need to submit your life to God then your life will change. See a Christian is not one by just word or works but there must be and understanding of your sin/disobedience to God then you must turn from your ways and accept that Jesus died for your sins and accept the new life that is available to you. Once you do that you enter into a relationship with Him. A Christian  personally knows God and His ways give us peace. Our lives are no longer centered on ourselves and what we think to be right but on the Truth.

By your world view we are just a bunch of atoms and some chemical reactions so how can you say that it is wrong for a few people to have power how can you make any moral statements?

Yahweh does a really bad job of convincing unbelievers to join his circle. Outside of violence. Hence all the violence in the old testament. So unless you're lucky enough to be born in it, you're unlikely to join, and unless you were threatened enough growing up, you're probably going to leave after giving it a skeptical read. You can use god to give you all the peace you want. That's not the side of christianity I have a problem with. It's the pastors who talk about killing all gay people, or the parents who want to avoid unwanted pregnancies and premarital sex, yet don't use the proven solutions that reduce such things, because it isn't abstinence only. Also can't forget the parents who let their children die of neglect because they believe in just faith healing.

We know these things are wrong because of objective data. This is why history is so important. We can look at societies and policies over the course of a century or more, and tell which countries have the best when it comes to stability, healthcare, and equality. Unbridled capitalism and theocracy isn't it.

How can you account for objective data? Since you have already stated that societies have subjective morals then there are no objective right and wrong, which means there is no true right and wrong. Since you believe that there is no Creator who gave us worth and meaning then your world view can't account for any true worth or mean. I don' know if you like him or not but Richard Dawkins has already said "The universe ... no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” So if you are going to be consistent with your world view then you shouldn't get mad at any injustice.

[Chad32]

Yahweh does a really bad job of convincing unbelievers to join his circle. Outside of violence. Hence all the violence in the old testament. So unless you're lucky enough to be born in it, you're unlikely to join, and unless you were threatened enough growing up, you're probably going to leave after giving it a skeptical read. You can use god to give you all the peace you want. That's not the side of christianity I have a problem with. It's the pastors who talk about killing all gay people, or the parents who want to avoid unwanted pregnancies and premarital sex, yet don't use the proven solutions that reduce such things, because it isn't abstinence only. Also can't forget the parents who let their children die of neglect because they believe in just faith healing.

We know these things are wrong because of objective data. This is why history is so important. We can look at societies and policies over the course of a century or more, and tell which countries have the best when it comes to stability, healthcare, and equality. Unbridled capitalism and theocracy isn't it.

How can you account for objective data? Since you have already stated that societies have subjective morals then there are no objective right and wrong, which means there is no true right and wrong. Since you believe that there is no Creator who gave us worth and meaning then your world view can't account for any true worth or mean. I don' know if you like him or not but Richard Dawkins has already said "The universe ... no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” So if you are going to be consistent with your world view then you shouldn't get mad at any injustice.

There are objective things in this world. Morality just isn't one of them. We have data on how societies do in the long term, especially as time moves on and we can see the histories of countries around the world. We can find out what works, and what doesn't.

Worth and meaning is a personal question. I give myself worth and meaning. You do too. You just decided to let a religion give you your worth and meaning.

You seem to be equating atheism with nihilism. I'm not a nihilist who thinks there's no point in anything. I have my own idea about it. It's subjective, but I try to derive it through objective means.

I can't speak for what Dawkins means, and haven't read his books.

[Rekeisha]

If you come at the bible as if it were just words in a book then you can study it all day and not be changed. If you believe it is the word of God and that you need to submit your life to God then your life will change.

(my bold)

Emphasized is the operative phrase.  If it were truly the inspired word of god, then it should be obvious to me as a non-believer, yet it is not.  I do not believe in Zeus either and there are stories and eyewitness accounts of his existence.  So why do you choose your god over Zeus?  The 'evidence' is the same.

The reason for God over Zeus is because here is only one God and you can't account for knowledge without Him.