JW looking clarity followup

[Won2blv]

Thanks for all the replies on the other thread I started. One poster recommended that maybe I start with just 1 point and go from there. The following is what rattles through my brain. Please remember that I'm not debating I'm sharing my thoughts...

The argument against god that there is no proof

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof? 2. Does gods creation not make him apparent? 3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way? 4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

I know the last one will get a lot of flack

[Quatermass]

1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

He doesn't have to be. But by that same token, shouldn't condemn people for choosing not to believe on the basis that he hasn't supplied proof of his existence. Nor does failing to do so lend any credibility to the idea that he might exist.

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

If it were supposed to be apparent, why is there more verifiable and reproducible evidence in favour of evolution than creation? Note: "the devil's tricking you" is not a sufficient answer.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

I would want him to stand trial for his crimes against humanity. Confirmation of his existence would mean that many people died for god, and he stood by and allowed it to happen. The American Constitution can be summarised as 'Those who have the power to act, have the responsibility to act.' If human beings can have this morality, why can't their creator?

[4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

There is no better way to control a population by putting the fear of God in them. Besides, Adam and Eve didn't reject God's sovereignty, they couldn't: they had no concept of it. Just as they had no concept of right or wrong, no concept of deception, lies and evil.

[henryp]

Thanks for all the replies on the other thread I started. One poster recommended that maybe I start with just 1 point and go from there. The following is what rattles through my brain. Please remember that I'm not debating I'm sharing my thoughts...

The argument against god that there is no proof

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof? 2. Does gods creation not make him apparent? 3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way? 4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

I know the last one will get a lot of flack

4) The idea that people will only follow God out of fear or reward, I think, is just anti-authoritarians projecting their mindsets onto others.  

3) I think a lot more people would be into God if It's existence was known to be true.

2) People have been finding a variety of God's and ideas apparent for a long time.  Until it was apparent they weren't.  I think we've reached the point where the unknown, to some extent, no longer demands an explanation, because we've seen so much unknown throughout history, and it almost always turns out to be explainable by something rather than God.

1) This goes with 3.  If you want humans to behave a certain way, setting up a scenario where a lot of them don't think you're real isn't a great strategy.  It's not about God subjecting himself, it's about God getting what he wants out of his creation.  God would know how our brains are going to work, and I'd think God would plan accordingly.  We're a little dopey, and need some hand holding on some things.

[robvalue]

1. It's up to him what he does. But if he gives me no credible evidence, and gives me a brain that requires evidence to draw a conclusion, he's setting himself up to fail there. Why would anyone believe something without a good reason to do so?

2. No. The universe is evidence of the universe. Just because science doesn't know everything about its origins, that doesn't mean you can just make stuff up. And anyway, that wouldn't point to anything more than a deistic God. You've then got to argue why that God is Yahweh.

3. No. I certainly wouldn't "serve" him. If he's supposed to be all powerful, he needs no help from me and is just messing me about. If he wants to have a sensible relationship, that is fine. But he's the all knowing one, and I'm here waiting, with no way to distinguish him from nothing.

4. Err... if God wants to to something, he can do it right now. If he's dragging it out, he's being a dick.

My answers may change slightly if you don't claim your God is all powerful.

[Surgenator]

Thanks for all the replies on the other thread I started. One poster recommended that maybe I start with just 1 point and go from there. The following is what rattles through my brain. Please remember that I'm not debating I'm sharing my thoughts...

The argument against god that there is no proof

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

If god wants to believe he exist, she should prove to us that he exist. The minimum standard needed to prove to human beings that she exist is the "human" standard. She can go higher is there is a higher version.

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

You assumed we are created. Evidence supports evolution not creation.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

Serve her, probably not. Know that she exist, yes.

4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

I know the last one will get a lot of flack

So what is the purpose of hell again? Killing them would be more merciful than torturing them for all eternity.

[Faith No More]

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof? 2. Does gods creation not make him apparent? 3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way? 4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

1. He wouldn't, unless he wants us to know he's there, that is.  He can't gives a brain with limited capacity to understand reality and refuse to work within that limit if he truly wants us to know he's watching.
2.  Only if you first assume he created everything.  Logic and reasoning doesn't work that way.
3.  That really depends on the god.
4.  Beats me.  I'm not sure how worshiping serves him at all.  It seems unnecessary when you're all-knowing to create some simple human just to worship you.  Megalomania anyone?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Thanks for all the replies on the other thread I started. One poster recommended that maybe I start with just 1 point and go from there. The following is what rattles through my brain. Please remember that I'm not debating I'm sharing my thoughts...

The argument against god that there is no proof

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

I don't know. If you believe that this God made us then surely that God should have the answer to this question right?

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

Yes, Barry the dragon God has done a fine job in the horse head nebula don't you think?

In all seriousness, no. No evidence anything was 'created' and hence no reason to presume a creator.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

Which God? The bible God? I'd certainly believe that it existed, but I would in no way 'worship' it. If it were in anyway possible to give such a being human attributes the best I would be able to come up with would be 'genocidal psychopath'. Can't think of why I'd want to worship that.

4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

No idea. Not my god, so I don't really care.

[Tonus]

My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof? 2. Does gods creation not make him apparent? 3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way? 4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

Assuming we are talking about the god of the Bible:
1- no one can force him to prove his existence, but why wouldn't he want to do so?  Yahweh had no qualms about appearing to people, talking and interacting with them, and performing miracles that they witnessed.  He had no more obligation to do so back then, yet he made numerous appearances and in some cases did incredible things.  Why stop?  Especially if he truly wants for everyone to know him and find salvation?

2- No, otherwise everyone would believe in god.  At best, if you feel that the universe and everything in it had to be the work of a divine being, you get as far as believing that someone or something of that nature exists.  It doesn't get you as far as any particular god, especially one that was very involved in the lives of his creation and then suddenly stopped all communication except for the occasional image on a piece of toast.

3- Serve him?  Probably not.  In the Bible, many of the people who know of god rejected him, including many angels and the first humans.  Later on people rejected him after seeing him perform miracles and even one of his own disciples betrayed him for money.  So I doubt that everyone would drop to their knees if Yahweh showed up.  We would believe he exists, since he would have confirmed it.  But serve?  Not everyone.

4- That's a question for god to answer, I think.  But considering your question 1, I would say that perhaps it doesn't matter.  If god's purpose is to clean up the world and populate it with his followers, does it make any difference to him that they follow him out of love or fear, or some mixture of both?

[robvalue]

God seems awfully tolerant of us atheists these days. He must have mellowed. He used to rip your lungs out and stuff them up your ass just for saying his name a bit funny or playing with sticks on the wrong day.

[Simon Moon]

Thanks for all the replies on the other thread I started. One poster recommended that maybe I start with just 1 point and go from there. The following is what rattles through my brain. Please remember that I'm not debating I'm sharing my thoughts...
The argument against god that there is no proof
My few thoughts on this are as follows, 1. Why would this almighty god be subjected to what a human demands as proof?

Depends on what the attributes that this god is alleged to have.

If this god does not care about humanity knowing about his existence, then it wouldn't be subjected to our demands of proof. 

But if this god does want us to know about its existence, then it shouldn't be surprised when the critical thinkers and skeptical among its creation come to the conclusion that there is insufficient evidence and reasoned argument to justify belief. And if it punishes disbelievers in any way, then it is being immoral for not supplying sufficient evidence.  

2. Does gods creation not make him apparent?

This short question is loaded with fallacies. 

It can be rewritten as a logical syllogism as:
Premise 1: god created the universe
Conclusion: Therefore, the universe is evidence of god's existence.

It is circular. What you are asking is, "Doesn't the universe that was created by god, prove that god exists?".

It affirms the consequent. The conclusion is that the universe is evidence for the existence of a god, but the premise contains the conclusion.
 
It begs the question. The premise requires evidence. Without providing evidence and reasoned argument to support the claim that god exists and that it is responsible for creating the universe, it can be dismissed as an completely unsupported assertion. 

You can't point at the universe and claim that a god is responsible without supporting that claim with demonstrable evidence and valid/sound logic.

Not to mention, that there is no evidence that there was a creation. All evidence points to natural processes.

3. If god popped up one day to make himself readily known as existing, would all people serve him any way?

Probably not. Especially if any of the known religious holy books are accurate depictions of god's actions and behavior. 

In my opinion, the worst possible reality would be the one where the Abrahamic god existed. Here is a god that condoned slavery, had his chosen people wipe out entire cities (men, women, animals) but keep the virgin girls for themselves, wiped out the entire population of the earth except a 900 year old drunk and his family, etc. Then, after one mistake after another, he impregnates a 14 year old girl, so he can sacrifice himself to himself as a loophole for the rules he created.

4. If gods purpose as I have been taught, is that one day the earth will be a paradise like state with no evil. Back to its original Eden conditions. Proving that Satan, Adam, and Eve were wrong to reject gods sovereignty and humans are not capable of ruling themselves... how would it serve his purpose if people worshipped him out of fear of him killing them rather than from their hearts?

What justification do you have to believe any of that?

Why would a perfect. omniscient being, create imperfect beings? Why would he create Satan, knowing that he would cause his creation all sorts of problems? Why would a perfect being need to be worshiped? The list of absurdities of the Bible story is almost endless. 
 
I am constantly shocked that so many people believe such an absurd, immoral story in the 21st century.