Another Good Reason to be a Christian

[dyresand]

there is no good reason to be a christian. I mean why bother being a christian anyways.

[robvalue]

Uhhhh... now you've really lost me Lek. If someone seems really happy and smart and whatever, then I should just believe whatever stuff they say?

So if I believe in a magic teapot, a teapot which makes people happy, and I am happy, is that evidence for the tea pot that I believe in?

Sadly, there is no evidence, still. And like I said, worship is ridiculous to me. Why should I worship anything? I find it an obscene concept.

The fact that some Christians are happy really doesn't change things. But I'm very glad for you that your religion makes you happy

[Lek]

Uhhhh... now you've really lost me Lek. If someone seems really happy and smart and whatever, then I should just believe whatever stuff they say?

So if I believe in a magic teapot, a teapot which makes people happy, and I am happy, is that evidence for the tea pot that I believe in?

Sadly, there is no evidence, still. And like I said, worship is ridiculous to me. Why should I worship anything? I find it an obscene concept.

The fact that some Christians are happy really doesn't change things. But I'm very glad for you that your religion makes you happy

You mentioned that you are suffering from an illness. Sorry to hear that. This is hypothetical, but it demonstrates the point that we look to other peoples' experiences to apply to our own lives. Say you read of someone who had the same illness, became a christian, and was immediately healed. Would you not be interested because you don't have any proof of God? What if you came to the conclusion that there was a God because of this? Would you refuse to follow God and be healed because you don't like him?

[robvalue]

Thank you

If someone became Christian then got better, then this is not evidence of anything supernatural. Even if everyone who became Christian suddenly got better, it is still not evidence of anything other than a strange, unexplained phenomena. We still wouldn't know exactly what caused the people to get better. Sure, if loads of people with my illness were getting better, demonstrated scientifically, by becoming Christian, I would pretend to be one and see if I got miraculously better. If so, cool. Then I'd stop being a Christian whether it worked or not, after a reasonable amount of time as demonstrated by the study. I expect that would make you very angry, but I can only profess belief, I cannot alter my beliefs at will. I would try it out scientifically. I would do whatever the study indicated was part of the tentative causation link. If this meant reading the bible each day and going to church, then I would. But I'd see no reason to carry on doing it after it either worked or failed, unless the study indicated people got worse again after leaving Christianity or something.

Supernatural causation is impossible to establish. Someone getting better for natural reasons looks exactly the same on our end as someone getting healed by God, healed by fairies, healed by satan, healed by my magical eye brow or randomly altered by the mischievous anarchy gnomes. It still looks the same. We can establish a tentative causal link between the act of becoming a Christian and a disease getting better, but that is as far as it goes.

The idea that if something good happens, and someone claims a certain supernatural cause is the correct and only cause; that you must accept their word, is I'm afraid the very basis of "faith" and why religion gets away with this stuff. They cannot demonstrate that it is true. To say "what else could it be" is the classic argument from ignorance fallacy.

Why does god hate amputees so much? Why won't he ever heal even a single one and grow their limb back? I'll tell you why, it's because God doesn't "do" anything that couldn't have happened anyway.

I'm not sure if you forgot to address this or don't want to: why should I worship anything? Isn't a thank you enough? Considering God is omnipotent, everything he has ever done has been literally no effort for him whatsoever. I've expended more effort writing this post than he has in the whole history of time.

[abaris]

Say you read of someone who had the same illness, became a christian, and was immediately healed.  Would you not be interested because you don't have any proof of God?  What if you came to the conclusion that there was a God because of this?  Would you refuse to follow God and be healed because you don't like him?

I give these stories the same kind of credit I give the occasional junk mail about working 3 hours and earning 80.000. Now if every christian suddenly wouldn't fall ill anymore, it would be something to investigate. But that doesn't happen now, does it?

[Cyberman]

This is all reversing into a "what evidence would it take to prove God to you" argument. We can dole out hypotheticals all day and still get no nearer to a resolution.

[robvalue]

God actually showing up would help me believe in him. Still wouldn't worship him though. If he wants to be friends, we can do that, as long as he's not a jerk.

If he's above being my friend or can't fit it into his schedule because people are wrong about his omnipotence, then I'm not going to kiss his ass instead, especially when his ass is nowhere to be seen.

I don't care if Christians could shoot out fireballs. Still not evidence of God.

[Cyberman]

And that's about as close as we're going to get to agreeing with the premise of this thread - if god X were proven to be real, we would have no choice but to believe in it but equally no reason to prostrate ourselves to it (and every reason not to).

[Mudhammam]

Say you read of someone who had the same illness, became a christian, and was immediately healed. Would you not be interested because you don't have any proof of God? What if you came to the conclusion that there was a God because of this? Would you refuse to follow God and be healed because you don't like him?

Lourdes water has also been cited as having healing power. Have you ever decided to order a bottle or trek over to the Grotto of Massabielle in the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes, France and take a dip because you were ill? No, probably not, because your brain functions just fine when the subject isn't your specific idea of the "correct faith" and you realize how patently ridiculous it is to believe that some water bestows healing effects on account of it containing holy or supernatural powers.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_water

And if by some off that chance doesn't work, Muslims in Saudi Arabia got you:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/zamzam_water

[robvalue]

What happened to my teapot?

I believe this is the "confirming the consequent" fallacy.

1. God makes christians happy and confident
2. Christians are happy and confident

Therefor, God exists.

This is a fallacy because God existing is far from the only reason that Christians may be happy and confident. One obvious alternative is they believe God is real, and this is bestowing them with these feelings regardless of whether their belief is true.

1. A magical teapot of happiness makes people happy who believe in it
2. I believe in the teapot, and I'm happy

Therefor the magical teapot exists.

Fallacious I'm afraid. Logic is a cruel master but the only one I worship