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Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
#41
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
Daystar. MY reason at least for caring about the content of the bible despite the fact I think its fairy tale is, basically:
1. The immorality and horror in the bible causing an awful lot of dogmatic fundamentalist 'faith' heads to do some terrible things they wouldn't normally do. They wouldn't do if they didn't think those things were actually justified to be righteous in the bible.
2. I don't believe in God. But I don't then say "God is evil". Of course not. I don't believe he exists.
What I DO say is. IF God exists. IF the God of the bible exists. If HE is our God. Then he's an extremely evil dictator. I don't say "He's evil". I say "IF such a God exists he's evil". So why believe in such a supremely evil God? And if you don't yet still believe in the bible. You obviously are interpreting it completely different to people who take it more literally. So you don't just believe what IT SAYS because you don't read it entirely literally.
So why DO you believe in God? Any reason? Any evidence? At all? How do you justify God with the bible when the God of the bible is blatantly evil? AND on the truth part. There's no evidence of him, no reason to believe. So why DO you believe?
I mean, c'mon!
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#42
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
(November 27, 2008 at 11:15 am)Daystar Wrote: I concede oh mighty Kyu god emperor of all wisdom. I concede.

Sarcasm? The lowest form of wit ... but the highest form of humour (go figure)!

(November 27, 2008 at 11:15 am)Daystar Wrote: What I was talking about was what, from my own personal experience, both in real life and online, people tend to think of extra terrestrial life existing without the stipulation that they had made contact with us.

Just so I know what we're talking about here you refer to the general view of intelligent extraterrestrial life, hypothetical cultures that have never had contact with us? If so then yes I would probably have to agree that in our imagination such races are usually perceived as being in some fashion more advanced than we are.

(November 27, 2008 at 11:15 am)Daystar Wrote: You mentioned sci-fi examples that transcend my own personal observations of public opinion and I conceded offering one of my own sci-fi examples. Frank Herbert's Dune chronicles. You made some good points in what I thought was a good discussion.

Love the film, wasn't so keen on the TV series, just finished reading the first two books (most enjoyable).

(November 27, 2008 at 11:15 am)Daystar Wrote: I know that the point of the bitter Atheist is to beat down and silence the opposition but I will simply not be so easily beaten down, sir! Because my ego is even bigger than yours

FWIW I actually think you're fairly clever, that's one of the reasons I don't get why you believe what you appear to believe.

Kyu
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#43
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
I don't want to "beat down and silence the opposition". I want to converse and have mature discussions, arguments and debates with theists so we can understand each other better. I will do my best to explain my view and if that deconverts them, that deconverts them. I basically explain why I don't believe what they believe. And it mostly involves asking, why do they believe what they believe. Because I don't believe any of it because I think its nonsensical. I think there is no evidence or good reason to believe in such things. Indeed I cannot disprove what there is no evidence of or reason to believe in, in the first place. But I don't need to. For exactly that reason: There is no evidence of or reason to believe in the supernatural in the first place. In my view at least. So if they can give me any reasons I'm fine to give my opinion. And don't expect me to think its evidence. Because I have never heard one good argument for God's existence yet. The best one is the fine tuned constants of the universe probably. But even thats pathetic because God himself would have to be more fine tuned than the constants themselves. He'd have to be an amazing mathematician.
To put it simply: I am basically on Sam Harris' side in the sense that I am also agree that a good strategy and view to take is "conversational intolerance".
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#44
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
(November 27, 2008 at 6:24 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Damn you Kyu, *I* wanted to be God Emperor of all wisdom Sad

You mean you're not? Huh

Kyu
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#45
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
(December 3, 2008 at 11:32 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I don't want to "beat down and silence the opposition". I want to converse and have mature discussions, arguments and debates with theists so we can understand each other better.
Can we do some beating and silencing? Pleeeeeaaase?! It's so much fun, and I didn't get a chance to do any silencing last time, Kyuu got to do it but not me! Sad

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU!

*runs to bedroom*
*Slams door*
*opens door*
*slams door again*
*sobs uncontrollably in foetal position while rocking backwards and forwards*
Atheism as a Religion
-------------------
A man also or woman that hath a Macintosh, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with used and abandoned Windows 3.1 floppy disks: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27
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#46
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
Oh deary deary me.
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#47
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
(December 4, 2008 at 6:54 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Can we do some beating and silencing? Pleeeeeaaase?! It's so much fun, and I didn't get a chance to do any silencing last time, Kyuu got to do it but not me! Sad

In a sense I'm right up there with that!

Some theists are quite interesting (Daystar maybe ... cough, cough, cough) but others won't change their mind ever. OK, I know theists will try to argue that we won't change our mind but I don't accept that to be true ... rational atheists tend to be science, reason, evidence based so they have a reasonable idea what will change their minds (in essence evidence and a reasonable interpretation of the same). But most theists seem to cling to their beliefs, as Dawkins puts it, without and and in many cases in spite of the evidence so there is no way this side of Uffern anyone is going to persuade them that they are wrong so the only things left are saying what we say for the lurkers (those who hang round forums like this but don't revel them,selves or are uncertain) or going for the tactical goal i.e. winning! If all you want to do is win then it really doesn't matter how you do it and ot seems to me "beating and silencing" is as good a result as any.

Kyu
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#48
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
(December 5, 2008 at 5:00 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote:
(December 4, 2008 at 6:54 pm)Jason Jarred Wrote: Can we do some beating and silencing? Pleeeeeaaase?! It's so much fun, and I didn't get a chance to do any silencing last time, Kyuu got to do it but not me! Sad

In a sense I'm right up there with that!

Some theists are quite interesting (Daystar maybe ... cough, cough, cough) but others won't change their mind ever. OK, I know theists will try to argue that we won't change our mind but I don't accept that to be true ... rational atheists tend to be science, reason, evidence based so they have a reasonable idea what will change their minds (in essence evidence and a reasonable interpretation of the same). But most theists seem to cling to their beliefs, as Dawkins puts it, without and and in many cases in spite of the evidence so there is no way this side of Uffern anyone is going to persuade them that they are wrong so the only things left are saying what we say for the lurkers (those who hang round forums like this but don't revel them,selves or are uncertain) or going for the tactical goal i.e. winning! If all you want to do is win then it really doesn't matter how you do it and ot seems to me "beating and silencing" is as good a result as any.

Kyu

See, this guy knows how message boards work! You don't see that very often.

As for me, I prefer not to think of my beliefs as a stagnant pool that reflects a distorted picture of myself and some ideaology under the murky waters beneath. If that makes any sense.

I believe in the Bible because over time it has proved itself to me again and again. I gladly accept when it proves me wrong. My 'beliefs' are not etched in stone, but it would take more than a science minded atheist who knows nothing of the Bible other than they have dismissed it out of hand to impress me.

All of this science stuff means very little to me, because it doesn't conflict with the Bible or it is no more sure of how things went down than the Bible appears to know.
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#49
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
I for one has had enough about "how great the bible is". It's not great at all!

Quote:All of this science stuff means very little to me, because it doesn't conflict with the Bible or it is no more sure of how things went down than the Bible appears to know.

I'd like to point out that the bible was written by people who believed the world is flat, and that the earth is the centre of the universe and that women were responsible for lightning striking churches.

These people knew nothing! Everything they wrote was from a superstitious view. There was no scientific method back then.

So why should I abandon all science today, with all it's data, evidence, research, study and countless great thinkers just because a book says so which was written by people who thought the world was flat!?

There is no such thing as a god. Since nothing says there is one.
(The bible does not class as evidence)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.

Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.

You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
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#50
RE: Observations On Atheism Part II - God And The Bible
Sorry I didn't see this post earlier, EvF, I can't always keep up with you.

(December 2, 2008 at 8:49 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Daystar. MY reason at least for caring about the content of the bible despite the fact I think its fairy tale is, basically:
1. The immorality and horror in the bible causing an awful lot of dogmatic fundamentalist 'faith' heads to do some terrible things they wouldn't normally do. They wouldn't do if they didn't think those things were actually justified to be righteous in the bible.

The same could be said for money and love and I don't see you complaining about those. People do stupid things and people put blame on things for stupid reasons. It is just as stupid to blame Dawkins book on the suicide of a young man as it is to blame the Bible and God for stupid things fundis do.

Anyway your argument makes no sense otherwise because I am sure you are not going to do those stupid things if you ever happen to read the Bible.

(December 2, 2008 at 8:49 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: 2. I don't believe in God. But I don't then say "God is evil". Of course not. I don't believe he exists.

Okay. So what?

(December 2, 2008 at 8:49 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: What I DO say is. IF God exists. IF the God of the bible exists. If HE is our God. Then he's an extremely evil dictator. I don't say "He's evil". I say "IF such a God exists he's evil". So why believe in such a supremely evil God? And if you don't yet still believe in the bible. You obviously are interpreting it completely different to people who take it more literally. So you don't just believe what IT SAYS because you don't read it entirely literally.

Are you trying to suggest that I should not believe in the God of the Bible because you, who have never read the Bible, thinks that he is an evil dictator? Because it sounds like that is what you are really saying. Besides the obvious problem I would have with your LACK OF EVIDENCE that argument doesn't makes sense metaphorically because if an evil dictator stood before you and said you can live or die you would most likely choose to live.

(December 2, 2008 at 8:49 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: So why DO you believe in God? Any reason? Any evidence? At all? How do you justify God with the bible when the God of the bible is blatantly evil? AND on the truth part. There's no evidence of him, no reason to believe. So why DO you believe?
I mean, c'mon!

I believe in God because his word the Bible is evidence to me that he exists and everything he said in it is true to date. Because I have studied it carefully and know what it says and can separate the myth from the fact. Because it makes sense to me and there hasn't been one sceptic who has been able to even come close to refuting it. Not one.
(December 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm)Ace Wrote: I for one has had enough about "how great the bible is". It's not great at all!

Just as I have had enough about "how great science is." I don't even disagree with that and I have had enough of it.

(December 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm)Ace Wrote: I'd like to point out that the bible was written by people who believed the world is flat, and that the earth is the centre of the universe and that women were responsible for lightning striking churches.

Okay, there are two possible responses I can give to this. First of all I could make the simple request that you back that statement up, having discussed those sorts of criticisms with atheists many times I happen to know you can't, because they are not true. And secondly I could give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that the people that wrote the Bible did think those things and thus place all the more reason to believe the Bible is the word of God rather than men because he was telling them the exact oppisite of what you suggest they thought about those thinngs.

Bloody fucking hell you would think you guys could come up with at least a halfway decent argument. Where is your sense of logic and reason, did they beat it out of you in school? I'm uneducated and I can see that.

(December 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm)Ace Wrote: These people knew nothing! Everything they wrote was from a superstitious view. There was no scientific method back then.

Science is still catching up with the Bible. This is so lame, Ace. C'mon!

(December 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm)Ace Wrote: So why should I abandon all science today, with all it's data, evidence, research, study and countless great thinkers just because a book says so which was written by people who thought the world was flat!?

I already made the point of the flat earth, but as far as abandoning science I never suggested that! Would it be such an ominous task to not be so spoon fed by your science. I sure as hell wouldn't even allow the Bible to do that to me. I won't put up with that shit from nobody Science or God.

(December 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm)Ace Wrote: There is no such thing as a god. Since nothing says there is one.
(The bible does not class as evidence)

I've been down that road too many times here. If you can't define the simple word god you will continue in that sort of ignorance.
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