2015 UK General Election

[downbeatplumb]

We're already an irrelevance on the world stage and are largely ignored.

I actually think Britain would be a much better place if the politicians accepted this.

In that case we can get rid of the expensive white elephant that is Trident.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

We're already an irrelevance on the world stage and are largely ignored.

I actually think Britain would be a much better place if the politicians accepted this.

Sorry but this just isn't true.

Sure we don't have an empire anymore, but the UK is still one of the most powerful richest places in the world. We live in a technological and medical wonderland.

The UK is extremely powerful relative the vast majority of other states in the world. I'm not speaking as a patriot or any of that bollocks, but just stating a fact. When people say the UK is irrelevant I think they're talking in the context of an imperial hangover and not the current context of it being inferior militarily but still exerting a massively disproportionate influence on world affairs relative to its size, a leader in research, finance and manufacturing (yes, even the latter despite what repeated stories of manufacturing dying in the UK say).

Currently the UK is the 2nd largest economy in the EU and the 5th in the world by GDP. Hardly irrelevant as I'm sure you'll agree.

[downbeatplumb]

I actually think Britain would be a much better place if the politicians accepted this.

Sorry but this just isn't true.

Sure we don't have an empire anymore, but the UK is still one of the most powerful richest places in the world. We live in a technological and medical wonderland.

The UK is extremely powerful relative the vast majority of other states in the world. I'm not speaking as a patriot or any of that bollocks, but just stating a fact. When people say the UK is irrelevant I think they're talking in the context of an imperial hangover and not the current context of it being inferior militarily but still exerting a massively disproportionate influence on world affairs relative to its size, a leader in research, finance and manufacturing (yes, even the latter despite what repeated stories of manufacturing dying in the UK say).

Manufacturing didn't die it was murdered with malice afore thought by Thatcher who wanted to break the power of the unions. Our manufacturing industries were sacrificed to her vanity.

The reason this financial crisis is taking so long to end is precisely because we can't export our way out of trouble because we have no major industries, with the possible exception of the arms industry.

We have become a service economy dependent on supporting the financial sector and that is all.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Sorry I think that's nonsense. We have a majority tertiary sector economy, sure, but we still have a vast manufacturing base which exports several billions of goods each year.

Manufacturing in the 80s died, yes, but it evolved and changed into high end manufacturing as that was the only viable way it would survive. And survive it has, and flourished.

The reasons for the credit crisis and subsequent recession are more nuanced than simply a lack of exports. One area is the over supply of housing capital coupled with a flooring of the demand led to the loss of billions in the markets which collapsed several credit based industries (housing and sub prime Markets). But the UK economy is interlinked with every other nation in the world and so naturally the ability of any state to 'recover' is constrained by that.

In fact we look are exports we export more now than we did 10 years ago.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

BOP are net imports but crucially the amount we export is still staggering:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/E...EuOTS.aspx

I don't know where this story of the UK not having a manufacturing base comes from but it's poppycock.

[Iroscato]

In terms of world relevance, we are absolutely still a major player, even if we don't directly or indirectly control half the planet anymore. London is one of the global hubs for finance and trading, matched only by New York, for one. Our industry and manufacturing has been through a long and difficult period of metamorphosis, but has emerged as world-class.
So overall we're doing alright. What really sticks in my craw is the little people being constantly trampled on, now matter how well or badly the economy does. It's like the strategy of each government is to devise new and increasingly inventive ways to make the poor suffer. And it is about fucking time that stopped.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Sure we don't have an empire anymore, but the UK is still one of the most powerful richest places in the world. We live in a technological and medical wonderland.

The UK is extremely powerful relative the vast majority of other states in the world. I'm not speaking as a patriot or any of that bollocks, but just stating a fact. When people say the UK is irrelevant I think they're talking in the context of an imperial hangover and not the current context of it being inferior militarily but still exerting a massively disproportionate influence on world affairs relative to its size, a leader in research, finance and manufacturing (yes, even the latter despite what repeated stories of manufacturing dying in the UK say).

Currently the UK is the 2nd largest economy in the EU and the 5th in the world by GDP. Hardly irrelevant as I'm sure you'll agree.

I've just lived three years in Germany, the largest economy in the EU. They aren't spending 100 billion on Trident and rushing off into every war around the world as if they are world's policeman. Quality of life there is significantly better than the UK. Germany still has manufacturing which is world-renowned.

It's the empire mentality that's holding the UK back. That and the fact that the political system and the establishment has existed intact since feudal times because the country has never been conquered.

---

What really sticks in my craw is the little people being constantly trampled on, now matter how well or badly the economy does. It's like the strategy of each government is to devise new and increasingly inventive ways to make the poor suffer. And it is about fucking time that stopped.

Agreed. It's either through incompetence (Labour) or malice (Tories).

When I lived in Germany I was made unemployed at the beginning of 2014. Because I had worked for over a year I was paid 66% of my wage by the government for at least 6 months. Then I was to be means tested for the next 6 months. I filled in the form for the means testing but never bothered submitting it so didn't claim the second half of the year.

The money I was paid did not just happen to be 66%, it was the same for everyone. 66% of whatever they had been earning. I was only called in every two months. I was very nervous every time I did because I was expecting it to be like the UK but the guy was aware I was looking at left it up to me. After the 6 months he put in on an integration course when it became clear my lack of German was holding me back.

Now admittedly tax is extremely high in Germany, about 50% of what you earn, but in the end I figured out what with exchange rates, cost of living and all I bring home post tax the same amount in Scotland as I do in Germany (less so in England because the cost of living is higher). But in Germany that tax gets spent on the people. Every child is guaranteed a place at nursery school. If a woman becomes pregnant then the employer doesn't have to pay maternity leave, the government does. Even though I do not and will not have children, as a woman this still affected me in the UK because small companies are less willing to employ an older woman of child bearing age in case they have to pay maternity leave.

It doesn't have to be the way it is in the UK. Germany shows us that. Germany still has unions for example!

[downbeatplumb]

Sorry I think that's nonsense. We have a majority tertiary sector economy, sure, but we still have a vast manufacturing base which exports several billions of goods each year.

Manufacturing in the 80s died, yes, but it evolved and changed into high end manufacturing as that was the only viable way it would survive. And survive it has, and flourished.

The reasons for the credit crisis and subsequent recession are more nuanced than simply a lack of exports. One area is the over supply of housing capital coupled with a flooring of the demand led to the loss of billions in the markets which collapsed several credit based industries (housing and sub prime Markets). But the UK economy is interlinked with every other nation in the world and so naturally the ability of any state to 'recover' is constrained by that.

In fact we look are exports we export more now than we did 10 years ago.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

BOP are net imports but crucially the amount we export is still staggering:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/E...EuOTS.aspx

I don't know where this story of the UK not having a manufacturing base comes from but it's poppycock.

Just after World War 2 manufacturing was 40% of the UK economy today it is 20% half of what it was the decline has been relentless.

The service industry now accounts for 66% of the economy.

How else can I see this other than a shift from manufacturing to service based economy?

[Iroscato]

It really is a more mature system in Germany. Sure, you have to bite the bullet and fork over half your money to the taxman...but in the long term, you get lots of nice things. But in the UK and US, there is this constant, feverish drive for less taxes, smaller government, less benefits.
Meanwhile as the country goes to shit, let's just blame dem brown folks! Yeah, stir up a bit of nationalistic pride! Never mind the worthless parasites at the top draining our money and rights bit by bit in a carefully constructed and executed power grab, the immigrants are after our jobs and wimminz!!!!

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Sorry I think that's nonsense. We have a majority tertiary sector economy, sure, but we still have a vast manufacturing base which exports several billions of goods each year.

Manufacturing in the 80s died, yes, but it evolved and changed into high end manufacturing as that was the only viable way it would survive. And survive it has, and flourished.

The reasons for the credit crisis and subsequent recession are more nuanced than simply a lack of exports. One area is the over supply of housing capital coupled with a flooring of the demand led to the loss of billions in the markets which collapsed several credit based industries (housing and sub prime Markets). But the UK economy is interlinked with every other nation in the world and so naturally the ability of any state to 'recover' is constrained by that.

In fact we look are exports we export more now than we did 10 years ago.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports

BOP are net imports but crucially the amount we export is still staggering:

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/E...EuOTS.aspx

I don't know where this story of the UK not having a manufacturing base comes from but it's poppycock.

Just after World War 2 manufacturing was 40% of the UK economy today it is 20% half of what it was the decline has been relentless.

The service industry now accounts for 66% of the economy.

How else can I see this other than a shift from manufacturing to service based economy?

Never said there wasn't. In fact, I said we had a tertiary based economy, which is true. Seriously, re-read what I said and see it for yourself. I also made no comment about the diversification of the UK economy from Manufacturing to Tertiary. I agree that's happened, and disagree that that is inherently bad. Services are a requirement of our global economy.

Talking of percentages of the economy isn't very helpful. You can have a 99% secondary sector economy and it still produce less than 10th of a tertiary sector (exports don't just mean hard goods/raw materials). My point is that when people say 'the UK doesn't have a manufacturing sector' or 'the UK doesn't produce anything' , they are touting a demonstrable and factual untruth.

Again, I don't know where it comes from, but the UK produces hundreds of billions of pounds worth of exports and goods for consumption (BOP in favour of exports is not universally good, either).

Again, to reiterate, the only two points (facts) I'm trying to make in response here is that the UK is neither an economy that produces nothing nor is it 'irrelevant' on the global economic and social stage. It is a major player in both, one of the most powerful in fact. I haven't made any other points that can be responded to, including trident and how great Germany is. I don't care about either of those points.

[Napoléon]

I'd probably vote for UKIP.

Fuck me, I wasn't expecting that one from the Tibster. 


As for myself, I won't be voting for the simple fact I don't see anyone worth voting for.


I do hope, whatever happens, that the SNP doesn't get in with a coalition. I say this as an Englishman ofcourse. They already get free prescriptions, free university fees and free fucking CAR PARKS. Who knows what other shit they'll arse rape out of the English if they get their grubby Scottish mitts on English power.

I'm glad Ed Milliband has been so damn sure he's not going to do a deal with them. I mean, I was thinking that was the most likely outcome until he said 'categorically' that he wouldn't form a coalition with the SNP. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if they did, and Nigel Farrage is bang on when he says it would be the biggest lie in British politics history if that were to happen. 

Speaking of Milliband, I don't know how anyone could vote for such an obvious, script reading puppet as him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4ivIid12o