Couple of clingers in my de-converting

[Won2blv]

The world hasn't gotten worse in the last 100 years at all.

Watch this (the Earth's population will stabilise at 10 billion):

http://youtu.be/ezVk1ahRF78

And this:

http://youtu.be/BPt8ElTQMIg

Which is a visualisation of the ever increasing global wealth and health.

I want you to know that I have more respect for you than most people on this forum but can you honestly say that 100 years ago man had the ability to do harm as much as they do today? Global warming is one issue that is a proactive harm. I think their are lots of un foreseen harms, like the spread of MRSA viruses. 

[Minimalist]

Jesus of Nazareth wasn't the only one to make the prophecy. Josephus records another Jesus making a similar prophecy (see War of the Jews 6:5:3) and states that the prophecy was made 4 years before war broke out (so c. 62AD). There's no indication from Josephus that this Jesus was a Christian, only that he went about proclaiming the coming destruction day and night in the streets of Jerusalem.

"Jesus" didn't write shit so what we are left with is the brain farts of later writers.  However, since you know the Jesus ben Ananias tale you might compare the actions of the procurator Albinus with the alleged behavior/actions of Pilate at the alleged trial of "jesus."  Remarkable similarities.  Why it is almost as if "Mark" copied the behavior of Pilate from Albinus.

[Aractus]

I want you to know that I have more respect for you than most people on this forum but can you honestly say that 100 years ago man had the ability to do harm as much as they do today? Global warming is one issue that is a proactive harm. I think their are lots of un foreseen harms, like the spread of MRSA viruses. 

Of course they had the ability to do unspeakable harms 100 years ago, what about the British concentration camps in the Second Boer War? Here's a picture of one of the victims (warning: graphic):

---

---

That little girl died aged 7 after being held in a British concentration camp in an attempt by the British to get her father to surrender. Concentration camps were used by a variety of different nations from the early 1800's through to the end of WWII by the Nazi's. More recently, in the early 90's there was the Dretelj camp, and in the 00's-present arguably Guantanamo Bay.

Post-WWII we have the Geneva Conventions. The two camps I just mentioned, Dretelj and Guantanamo both contravened the Geneva Conventions, and also the UN Convention against Torture. So while it's true that war crimes still happen, they happen on a far reduced scale from what they did in the past and there is far greater accountability. It is my fond hope that one day Bush, Cheney, Obama, the CIA staff in Cuba, and the Pentagon (, etc.) are held to account and prosecuted for their war crimes, preferentially in Geneva.

Global Warming is NOT a crisis. Here's respected climate scientist Richard Lindzen (contributor to IPCC reports):

http://youtu.be/i1CR0v7dwXU


And just look at how he gets heckled when interviewed by someone who ISN'T a climate scientist!

http://youtu.be/mOU306AvvHE

Is it any wonder why you only hear the alarmist side of the argument? That's what sells newspapers, and it's what sells policies that can benefit political agendas. We are in no danger of Global Warming harming our future on the planet, none whatsoever. Global Warming will have an inequitable effect across the globe, and that's true, and that's part of what we have to plan for. But it isn't going to wipe everyone out, nor is it going to create more droughts and more natural disasters. In Australia it is believed that for us overtime Global Warming will have the effect of shifting rainfall north whilst the national average remains constant. This will change the landscape over times, just as has always happened for millions of years now right across the world. There was a time when Antarctica was once covered in vegetation and land mammals. There are farms from the middle-ages on Greenland that are still under permafrost from the little ice age. That's recent history and goes to show that the fertility of the land is always shifting, and follows regional climate change.

[Minimalist]

and in the 00's-present arguably Guantanamo Bay.

You do not have to be polite.  There is no argument about it.

[Aractus]

The only argument is whether you would call it a "concentration camp".

[Minimalist]

How many people were held there for indeterminate terms without being charged?

I'm not going to quibble about definitions.  You were right the first time.

[robvalue]

Nic: I don't pre suppose any "holy book" is fairy tales. I conclude that they are most likely fairy tales, there's a big difference. You would do the same about any fantasy book you picked up, regardless of whether you knew who wrote it, when, or why. If I found any reason to believe they might reasonably have any truth to them beyond the mundane, then I'd be happy to admit it. But I don't.

I understand it must be very hard to see my point of view, just as it's hard for me to know what it's like to be indoctrinated, because I never have been. (I'm assuming you were, please correct me if I'm wrong. It's not an insult, I recognise it as the equivalent of abuse so I feel sympathy.) So I appreciate my attempts to be rational and logical may appear to be something quite different to how I intend them. All I can do is tell it like it is, to the best of my knowledge and understanding. I'm not trying to trick anyone, only to encourage critical thinking and logic. I have nothing to gain by "getting more atheists" except the satisfaction that I helped someone through something difficult and helped free them from the shackles of religion. But if people just think about things I'm happy, and clearly you are doing so.

When you use the "But what if [scenario]" argument to try and make part of the bible seem possibly real, I understand the tendency to do that because you're so used to thinking that it is real and the characters in it are real. But to me it's no different from saying "But what if Lord of the Rings actually happened and Sauron was defeated but not destroyed. He could be gaining in power, and this is causing all the evil in the world. Every evil thing just shows how much more powerful he is getting". I can't definitively say "No that didn't happen and isn't happening" but I don't need to, because I have no reason to think it actually is happening. We have limited time in life, so there's no point spending it on ideas and claims that have no logical support behind them. There are infinitely many!

If you want to beat religion and see through it, that is the mental shift you need. Don't ask "How do I know this isn't true?" (the argument from ignorance fallacy); instead ask "Do I have any good reason to think this is true?" (the sceptical stance). Find out what the real reasons are you believe things, and evaluate those reasons. If you believe something, you have a reason. It may be a good or a bad reason. You may not even be aware what the reason is until you start analysing your thoughts.

If the reasons to believe are good, they will stand up to scrutiny, so there is nothing to fear from enquiry.

I apologise if I come over as anything other than just wanting to help and discuss. I try my best to be helpful, and to understand the theist position. I appreciate I won't always succeed at this, having never gone through it myself.

[Tonus]

So, TLDR how can I feel confident that what is going on with humans is not a right on track of biblical prophecy but really just business as usual? And please please please, I could tell you about how much I care about hearing on the different dates of the JW past but I am not sure what the rules are on cursing.

Throughout human history, people have been predicting calamity and disaster.  For the past 1,500 or so years there have been numerous attempts at predicting the end of the world, and most of the signs are the same ones: an increase in natural disasters, an increase in crime and a seeming loss of consideration for ones fellow man, and so on.  Time and again people have warned their contemporaries that things have gotten worse and worse and that it's not possible for the downward trend to continue, hence it must be the time of the end.  1,500 years.  Give or take.

We can see a form of this "things are getting worse" all the time, because as we get older we strip many of our oldest memories down so that they're a romanticized version of the past.  Nostalgia gets us to look at the past as an ideal time, and everything since then has gotten worse and worse, and so the world seems to be on the road to catastrophe.  So we really can't tell if the current time is a sign of the end, of the coming of one god or another, because humans have proven utterly incapable of properly reading the way things are going on a global level and applying that towards what the future holds.

[IATIA]

I want you to know that I have more respect for you than most people on this forum but can you honestly say that 100 years ago man had the ability to do harm as much as they do today?

The Industrial Revolution was the transition to new manufacturing processes in the period from about 1760 to sometime between 1820 and 1840

just a bit over one hundred years ago.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I want you to know that I have more respect for you than most people on this forum but can you honestly say that 100 years ago man had the ability to do harm as much as they do today? 

 A hundred years ago, the harm had already started. A hundred years ago, carbon had been pouring into the atmosphere for a century or more; humans had been polluting waterways with the chemical runoff from paper-mills; ozone-depleting chemicals were already being released.

In physical terms, a century ago the potential harm wasn't as great, you're right about that. But a century ago, the harmful mindset had still been in place for tens of millennia. A hundred years ago, fertilizers were draining into seas unchecked, unknown vapors were spilling into the air unchecked, toxic waste waste being buried underground for later generations to discover by way of lab tests and tumors.

Man had already planted, nurtured, and started to harvest the seeds of harm a hundred years ago. I think with our advancing knowledge, while man might be more capable of harming the planet, man is also a little wiser and understands the folly of disregarding the planet's complaints.