Rags to riches stories why they tick me off.

[AFTT47]

Neither bill gates nor Leon musk were ever poor, much less in rags.     To manufacture rags to rich story to divert the attention of those in rags from the reality that odds against their gaining any semblance of riches are worse in the U.S. than in many other places is nothing but opiat for those in rags.


As to encouraging those in rags to attain riches, they are much better encouraged by actual chances than by fictional chances. 

Granted.

I just don't see the point of discouraging young people. Working to bettering their chances is one thing - whining about how it could be better is another.

[Brian37]

I don't know, Brian. I can't argue that we can all be Bill Gates or Barack Obama. We obviously can't. We can all rise to our best potential though. I see nothing wrong with encouraging us all to give it our best shot. Where's the value in telling people that they may as well forget it, that they're fucked? Seems to me like that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell yourself you don't have a chance, that's not much of a motivation to try, is it?

I hate it when even atheists get stuck in either/or propositions.

Did you not read my OP, I dont fault anyone for getting where they want. But the truth is most of us if lucky get to a place where we manage to keep a roof over our heads and pay our bills and keep food on the table. What is wrong with promoting the idea that the more stable people there are in our society we all do better?

There is a huge difference in inspiring someone and selling candyland. Candyland is what the top sells which gets everyone to chase utopias. Happiness isn't about title or class or wealth, happiness is being yourself and if you do get lucky that is a bonus, but the important thing is to be happy. 

---

As a 12 Stepper, I've encountered quite a few people over the years that have found themselves literally set for life, and have totally pissed it away.

and then;

Some years ago, the neighbor lady had me transfer some family photos to disc.  Her dad I had always viewed as a damn hard worker that never got a break.  He wasn't destitute, but he lived his whole life with damn little in the way of possessions and died in the meager straits he had always lived.

My shock looking at the pictures was considerable.  Not one of them showed him with anything but a smile on his face.

I don't know about the rest of you, but there is a lesson here . . . .

That is what we should be addressing right there. Not masturbating over pretty stories that are very rare. Conditions need to improve so that no matter where someone ends up they don't have to be slaves their entire lives. 

[Faith No More]

My father-in-law grew up dirt poor having to fight amongst his eight siblings for food, and through blood, sweat and tears, he started his own company that he just sold for several million dollars. Of course, he had to split it with his brother and the man took a huge chunk, but he is now a self-made millionaire.

I hope you enjoyed that, Brian.

[AFTT47]

I don't know, Brian. I can't argue that we can all be Bill Gates or Barack Obama. We obviously can't. We can all rise to our best potential though. I see nothing wrong with encouraging us all to give it our best shot. Where's the value in telling people that they may as well forget it, that they're fucked? Seems to me like that's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you tell yourself you don't have a chance, that's not much of a motivation to try, is it?

I hate it when even atheists get stuck in either/or propositions.

Am I doing that?
I acknowledge that things could be better. Hell, that will always be true no matter how rosy things get. I agree that it's always good to work to make things better.
I think it is you who are stuck in either/or propositions. Why not egg young people on at the same time we are working to make things better for them? Even if we are stagnated, there is nothing to be gained from projecting doom and gloom. Project that to the people who are responsible for making things better, sure. It's counter-productive to project that to the people who have to work with what they have.

[The Grand Nudger]

The Horatio Alger myth, keeping america's poor in their place since the civil war. Egging someone on and lying to them are probably not the same thing, AF, eh? Sure, tell young kids to give it their best shot, but also prepare them for the fact that their best shot is going to enrich another, not themselves - because that's an inarguable truth of our society until such a time as we deign to do something about it. Better find different metrics for the kid to aspire to, than rising up out of the gutter - something that the kid might actually achieve, you know? I just don't know that I agree with the notion that having actionable and reasonable expectations for one's efforts is counterproductive, ever - personally.

[Alex K]

There's this horrible narrative in America that things like a social safety net and having the small time worker profit from the wealth companies are making, are unamerican and would only weaken the motivation of individuals to work hard. The truth is of course that only very few people can be multimillionaires, and the masses are necessarily poor and exploited in such a scheme.

Tell me, Faith No More, what magical work can your father-in-law possibly have done that would justify him being a multi-millionaire while most of his employees who did the actual work and/or the employees of the company that bought it probably never saw that kind of dough?

edit: I don't even want to argue that becoming rich by founding a company is immoral per se. My point is rather that your example is not a good argument in favor of rags to riches stories because it relies on an unnamed workforce which has necessarily not gained riches. They may very well have received a decent wage, but that's again not the point.

---

My father-in-law grew up dirt poor having to fight amongst his eight siblings for food, and through blood, sweat and tears, he started his own company that he just sold for several million dollars.  Of course, he had to split it with his brother and the man took a huge chunk, but he is now a self-made millionaire.

I hope you enjoyed that, Brian.

[Faith No More]

Tell me, Faith No More, what magical work can your father-in-law possibly have done that would justify him being a multi-millionaire while most of his employees who did the actual work and/or the employees of the company that bought it probably never saw that kind of dough?

edit: I don't even want to argue that becoming rich by founding a company is immoral per se. My point is rather that your example is not a good argument in favor of rags to riches stories because it relies on an unnamed workforce which has necessarily not gained riches. They may very well have received a decent wage, but that's again not the point.

---

Well, I'll tell you about the company I work for and how my father-in-law became a millionaire.  He worked day in and day out for a psychopathic boss that treated his employees like shit to the point that it was abuse.  My FIL was his right-hand man and was as loyal as he could be to this man, working weekends and overtime whenever he was needed.  He had offers for better jobs, but my FIL has a very deep sense of loyalty to his employer.  He stuck with this man that treated him and the people he was in charge of poorly, because that was what he was taught to do.

His job was building hot patchers, which are used in road maintenance to transport and apply asphalt while it's hot, and one day, when he'd had enough, he quit and decided to build his own prototype and ask his brother who was a successful businessman to start up a company.  He spent a year designing and welding his prototype in his own garage, and then entered the market under his own brand.  He drove day in and day out to municipalities across the country showing off his machine to convince people to buy it, and when they did, to save on shipping, he or one other guy would drive the machine cross-country to the place that purchased it.  It was touch and go for several years, but the man is a work horse.  He put everything he had into his business.  Eventually, he overshadowed his former employer and started doing quite well.  He was able to hire more and more welders, which Michigan has thousands of unemployed, and he worked every day, right along side his employees, selling, repairing, and delivering the machines they were making.

His business was valuated at several million dollars, but he was never really interested in selling his baby.  He was too worried about the company and what would happen to his employees.  He eventually got an offer well above the valuation price from an investment firm, but he turned it down.  They came back with more and more, and he then decided that because of his health problems(which are actually due to his former employer) and his age, he would hand it off to them as long as the deal was right and he felt the company was in the proper hands that wouldn't dismantle it and leave his employees high and dry.  He made sure that nothing would change, and he's contractually obligated to run the company for five more years.

I understand that stories like this can be used and abused to keep people down and that this is a rare occurrence.  I also understand that my father-in-law was somewhat lucky, because even though he was poor, he grew up in an area that was well off, and I understand his story is not justification to minimize the contribution of the workforce.  I made my comment, though, in jest at Brian's black and white mentality where everything is either good or bad and shades of grey don't exist.   And I think if he truly wants to be the social activist he galavants about as, it would do him some good to understand nuance.

[Alex K]

Very impressive story!

[Faith No More]

I know, right? The man is living the American dream. I wish I had one quarter of his work ethic.

[downbeatplumb]

Rags to riches tales are at least half luck with maybe some talent and ability, but mostly luck.