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Climate change
#21
RE: Climate change
(May 11, 2015 at 1:03 am)Aractus Wrote: And I'm saying there are more important needs for the health and wellbeing of our 10 billion people (by 2100) than the CO2 level - and those are water security; population resettlement; and food security. Those are the things I believe should be prioritised.

Not to mention I think that $90 million could have been much better allocated than chasing the dubious promise of a new form of energy. We could have spent that on foreign aid; on water security; on helping the disadvantaged in our country; or on plenty of other far more deserving causes.

Agreed, water security is a thing.  Changes to rainfall patterns globally won't help us solve that.  Population resettlement is a thing, changes to habitible zones won't help us solve that.  Food security is a thing, and disruption of climate zones, rainfall patterns, and arable land won't help us to solve that.  I'll say this, definitively, climate change does not pose any challenge that we are not equipped to handle (try to think of anything that the climate could bring that we do not, currently, have a solution for...it's pretty much what we do...eh?). We (as in the 1st world) won't, of course, handle any of those things until they inconvenience us. Imagine the cost of full cover, irrigated production for staple crops? Imagine the cost of resettling vast swaths of third world populations in the face of desertification (which has been a thing we've been ignoring forever, while people starve and die of thirst)? Imagine the cost of drilling miles deep wells in areas so that they can support ag and human pops(africa has this in spades - it is, bar none, the best place on earth to grow food and has a crushing majority of all remaining arable land on earth), deep water that's far too expensive to pull up unless it's our interests rather than "their" lives? Climate change is a massive added cost to all of those things you mentioned as being higher on your list of priorities......as you've noticed......we recieve little benefit. Bit like a hazmat team scraping the roadside for miles after a chemical spill. Phenomenal cost, little to no benefit. Does that mean that we should stop cleaning up those spills and focus on repaving the road instead? Cost, cost, cost cost cost........honestly, I think the problem we currently have is that we put too much stock in what improving our global situation would cost......... do we value life so little?

Could have spent 90million on any of the current energy alternatives that we have, as well.  Thing is, 90million is a drop in the bucket, and if we're talking about solving any of these problems, and we don't actually have to choose between any of them. When we put them on opposite ends of the seesaw and try to determine which one is "more deserving" we're simply deciding the level of indifference to human suffering that we are comfortable with - because our pockets aren't that shallow....

Most of the time, in these exchanges, I end up on the other side of the line. Climate alarmist says "We're all gonna die!" - I say...not unless we give up, but here we are, talking cost....so, if that;s the metric...yeah, we're all gonna fuckin die after all, because "cost" has been killing us for generations, and I doubt it's gonna stop now. It has the kind of proven track record it would be foolish to argue against.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: Climate change
In our lifetime it may pose a challenge, yes. 1,000 or 2,000 years from now though climate change will reverse desertification - so our distant descendants will have a greener, healthier planet then we do.

And $90 million is a LOT of money considering it could have been far better spent.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#23
RE: Climate change
Desertification is not an on/off proposition.....and who's making wild predictions now?  Desertification happens when it gets warmer, it happens when it gets colder.  It just moves, that's what the temp does, moves the area of effect around.  We are not currently in a "more or less healthy" planet, reversing this or that has little to do with the health of the planet, and everything to do with the health of our societies -on the planet-. The saying itself is misleading.

No, sorry, 90 mil is not alot of money.  It's chumpchange.  It seems like alot to you because you're poor. It's a single living generation of one middle class US extended families likely lifetime assets (and that's just counting their meager take from their efforts) - it's 3 months worth of product at the factory I'm currently employed by.....which no one on these boards would be able to place on a map.......which produces a product that no human being on earth requires, or should even avail themselves of in the first place.....

We'll spend far more, and we do spend far more, on far more trivial shit - we will also, invariably, spend more on climate change if we spend anything to solve the problems you mentioned as being more deserving - ironically each of them was tied inextricably to climate change in the first place. I am completely convinced that the only danger climate change poses to us, ultimately, is the danger that we will fail to act when we could, without any requirement for novel or new tech, without any requirement that people buckle up the world over and suffer austerity, without any requirement that we don;t currently toil under in the first place. Practiced, directed, insufferably ignorant apathy.

Even this "1000's of years from now" horseshit is just that. We have to spend the money to get from here to there, and then spend the money again to reset to whatever methods would then become worthwhile. We -will- spend the money, Aractus...we already -are- spending the money. Here again, after all of this, it's time to remind you that the cost which you're clinging to might just as easily be counted in human lives...rather than green slips of paper. But hey, fuck em, you know, too expensive, apparently. Gotta make sure that the ledger is in the black first, then we'll talk human suffering, eh?

Ignore all of that, though. Remediation is expensive, pretty much as a rule, no matter what we apply it to. An ounce of prevention and all that. But...one mans cost is another mans profit, huh? So, climate remediation will provide billions to business owners engaged in it, won't it? I'm not seeing the downside......using this cost business as the standard.......almost makes me want to switch vocations....hell, I ought to be able to draw a pretty penny in carbon offsets if I choke my fields with corn shouldn't I? I won't even have to put all the capital in to grow it for human consumption. Bonus!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#24
RE: Climate change
Compared to a trillion dollar economy and a $400 billion annual federal budget it isn't a lot, but it's an awful fucking lot of money to be wasted chasing the promise of someone as deluded as Tim Flannery. To put this into perspective, the cost of converting Majura Road into Majura Parkway - a LONG OVERDUE improvement that has taken many years to get the funding secured for - is $288 million. That $90 million that the federal government gave to Flannery could have been used to build 1/3rd of the road.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50. -LINK

The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea. -LINK


"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
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#25
RE: Climate change
You reckon that a larger road is actually a good idea?  Might that be because you're a climate change denier...lol? :wink:
(I'm not surprised that the gov uses climate change to funnel money to their buddies, you shouldn't be either - but that has little to do with solving the problem - it is, itself, a separate problem which we can simultaneously address, don't you think? I want you to know that I didn't look up, at all, what they awarded that cash for, because it's irrelevant. You can't point to malfeasance, real or imagined, as a reason for doing nothing about a problem. My government, for example is what some might call hopelessly corrupt.....but that doesn't let them off the hook with regards to providing service, eh?)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#26
RE: Climate change
Maybe if we all just close our eyes and hold in our farts we'll be OK.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#27
RE: Climate change
(May 11, 2015 at 4:35 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't know enough about climate change to comment.

But can I ask what this has to do with your de-conversion? I'll take a guess:

Let's say the bible specifically said, "Humans will cause adverse climate change." All that would show is the people writing it got something right. It doesn't however validate anything else in the book, or tell you how they got it right. It could be a lucky guess, a good estimation, some magic spaghetti told them... just because they got it right, it doesn't mean their explanation for how they knew it is also true.

For example, let's say I guess at your birthday and I get it right. I do the same thing for hundreds of other people. It seems like I have access to information that seems impossible for me to have. If I say I'm getting the information from a magic teapot in another galaxy, does that mean I really am getting it from that teapot?

And that is giving the bible a lot of credit, it makes no such specific claims. It makes very vague statements that could be interpreted in so many ways as to fit almost any scenario.

Well I don't like the the false equivalencies between the god of the bible and the what if scenarios. Just remember that the god of the bible forbade idols or images of himself. So even getting people to worship a toaster at leasts gives them something to visualize, which is important for visual creatures. Maybe that is a minor point to you but it means something to me... 

But what it means for me in my deconversion is this, I have have been raised to believe that sometime around 1914 that Satan was kicked out of the heavenly realm and sent to earth. So now he is pissed and all of the problems of mankind will be significantly increased. So now for me I want to be able to look at the world and not see it on the brink of disaster. For me, it might end up being my own Pascals Wager... I might just decide that its a better bet for me today and for the future to just assume its all true. I don't believe humans go to heaven so I'd die with the same expectations regardless. 
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#28
RE: Climate change
Okay... I don't know what you mean by false equivalences.

I don't seem to be helping anymore, so I'll just shut up and leave you alone. I'll be in the corner if you need me Smile
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#29
RE: Climate change
Again, Nica, you are referring to the myth of the golden age, that somehow...... things used to be better, and we are now at the precipice of oblivion.  This has been a narrative for some time, it is not an original idea, and it is not, in any way imaginable, true.  It is better now than it has ever been for us, period. That you see the world, and our situation in it in this manner is indicative of your religious upbringing, not the actual state of the world or the people within it.

Your parents raised you to believe in goblins...............I'm not sure how seriously you ought to take that, or why you would be looking for confirmation in climate science.......as to whether or not goblins exist. If there really were a golden age, and things used to be better, and we were now on that precipice.......would that mean that goblins existed?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#30
RE: Climate change
It is a natural cycle, we have historically seen this with fluctuating warmer and colder periods throughout the Earth's history. However, there is definitely strong evidence to suggest that we do exacerbate the warming of the planet. We may actually be in a period that would be warming up naturally if we weren't here, but we're making it more extreme by our behaviours.

I think there are simply too many people in the world. You have all these people driving around cars and demanding resources that we have to pollute the environment to get, make and use. Humans have always historically damaged the environment through their activities, but we've never been so large in number before, so today it's more of a problem.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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