Climate change

[robvalue]

Nic: OK sure I understand this must be a very confusing time for you. I'm happy to help in any way I can.

[KevinM1]

Right now, I don't think feel like the world is better than it was 100 years ago.

Why not? What metrics are you using?

[Aractus]

I don't believe that the 50's were the golden age, I believe that things just go from bad to worse. For me, I see greedy humans rule the day in the end. And I don't say that being naive. I just see that greed leading to humankind being eradicated from this earth

IMO, I don't believe that you are brash like some. Many make claims without feeling like any burden of proof is at all needed since they're among like minded friends. I read one post where the guy was asking 3 questions to christians and the 3rd was basically, "you know you're wrong right?" It just seems like many atheist believe that they can come from the presupposition that all of their claims must be true since they are logical evidence based people that always keep abreast of scientific consensus. Maybe that is true, but I just want to hear the logic, the evidence, and the scientific consensus.

Okay, the issue is that your claim (and the claim from many Christians and in particular JW's) - that "the world is getting worse all the time" is something that can be and has been examined time and time again. The priest at my old church was always saying that the decline in worldwide church attendance is an example of this. Now he's right to a certain extent; because being active in a church has net benefit both for the individual and the broader community. That seems counterintuitive to many atheists, however it's a well established fact that this effect has been observed and written down in peer-review journals repeatedly. There's an abundance of evidence for that. But it's not all good either; in a paper titled Does Religion Affect Economic Growth and Happiness? Evidence from Ramadan by Campante & Yanagizawa-Drott (May 2015 - ) found that Ramadan does have a negative economic effect and stunts economic growth.

So with that in mind, consider the claim that "the world is getting worse and worse". Well, if that claim was first made by Christians in let's say the second century AD, then they've been making that claim now for 1900 years. So of course it's going to be true from time-to-time, it's bound to be true every so often. But what's interesting is that in our lifetime it is most certainly not true; and we've got excellent data that proves this. Life expectancy is UP - all across the world. Living conditions is UP - all across the world. Happiness, Security and Wellbeing are also UP. Wealth is UP. All of these good things are up and are still increasing. This is all a direct effect from the industrial revolution; and from the progresses that have been made since then. For instance, in abandoning the laissez-faire socio-economic model; the shift (generally speaking) AWAY from victim-blaming; and the shift towards greater equality among all people in a country. Some of that gels quite well with the message from the New Testament; however some of it doesn't. Progressive taxation is an excellent example; the God of the Bible - Jehovah - thought all people should pay the same tax rate, which he called a "tithe", and set at 10%. It was to be paid to religious officials. Well, we now know that type of taxation system isn't fair to those who are disadvantaged, and who earn less.

In addition to all of this, we now near-universally recognise a number of human rights. Including the right to safe affordable food, safe affordable housing, clean drinking water, and additionally in Australia we also recognise some specific rights for people who identify as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander . Furthermore, all citizens have the right to vote - regardless of whether they're Indigenous or Non-Indigenous, male, or female. All citizens have the right to due process, and the right to access courts and tribunals to settle civil and criminal disputes. For example, all married people regardless of whether they're male or female have the right to file for a divorce - assuming they've met the conditions (that is that they are married and have been separated from their spouse for 12 or more months). This is very different to what the Bible teaches. Read it for yourself - a divorce is something that a man has a right to, and he can hand it to his wife and "send her away". Women in the Bible are not allowed to divorce their husbands.


"The husband cannot be guilty of a rape committed by himself upon his lawful wife, for by their mutual consent and contract the wife hath given up herself in this kind unto her husband, which she cannot retract" -Sir Matthew Hale as Chief Justice in 1673.

What about Domestic Violence? We now recognise that as an important social AND criminal issue. But that's a relatively recent change and reflect the change in attitude that has occurred overtime in the broader community. When Hale said those words in 1673 they influenced the laws in the UK, in the USA, and in Australia until just recently. It was the period from the early 1980's to the mid 1990's that saw the legal protection for spouses involved in domestic violence repealed, and the laws updated in a direction to protect victims: such as making it a crime, imposing penalties, and giving the police additional powers. Under Australia's influence, in 2013 PNG criminalised domestic violence. Now to put this in perspective, we have accepted a number of refugees from PNG over the years who have fled domestic violence - but the number is tiny perhaps 20 people a year or so. That's not going to do anything as an intervention to help ordinary PNG citizens. So this is just another example of the positive progress that is being made in the world. As you can see I've provided you with several examples, and there are plenty more I can provide you with: there really is no shortage of examples of the clear social benefits and progress that has been made over the last century or so. You're clearly an intelligent person nicanica123, and you are capable of finding a lot more examples of improvements that have been made over the past century or so.

If you had an everyday Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, and one of Jehovah's Witnesses at your home and you had them explain their beliefs using reason and scriptural basis I guarantee you that 9 times of 10 the Witness would have more scriptural basis and logical reasoning for their belief. Now that doesn't mean much to you but the point is, I have deeply entrenched views and I'm not going disregard them just because someone says, "well, you know you're wrong right?"

I disagree entirely. You may have been taught that JW's know the Bible better than other Christians, but that just is not true. In fact it's so far from the truth that I ask you to show me any academic institutions anywhere in Australia that are run by JW academics? Is there any - even one? There are many Catholic and non-denominational Bible colleges, and plenty of examples that are focused towards a particular denomination (Moore College - Anglican for example).

For whatever reason, over half the worlds population seems to believe in this god (muslims, christians, and jews) so there was something that got us here. Maybe it is simply just because of tradition and the one god that by chance made it big. I don't really know... So when people tell me, "what does it matter? I could claim that my pet dog told me 9/11 would happen a month before it did" Yeah of course, but if there is some kind of truth to that claim it would have to be explored? And if it is easily dismissed then it is easily dismissed. My bottom line is this, I don't need absolute certainty but I'm not going to let anyone convince me of something just because they said so

What you seem to forget though is that there are over 2,000 deities; many of whom are still believed in today. Jehovah is just one deity out of those 2,000+ deities. And you in fact disbelieve in the vast majority of them - so does everyone else. So among the religious they believe in just 0.05% of deities. Atheists agree 99.95% with that assessment made by the average religious person - the only difference is that that they don't believe in any of the deities (0.00%).

nicanica123- may I ask how old you are?

[Won2blv]

I don't believe that the 50's were the golden age, I believe that things just go from bad to worse. For me, I see greedy humans rule the day in the end. And I don't say that being naive. I just see that greed leading to humankind being eradicated from this earth

IMO, I don't believe that you are brash like some. Many make claims without feeling like any burden of proof is at all needed since they're among like minded friends. I read one post where the guy was asking 3 questions to christians and the 3rd was basically, "you know you're wrong right?" It just seems like many atheist believe that they can come from the presupposition that all of their claims must be true since they are logical evidence based people that always keep abreast of scientific consensus. Maybe that is true, but I just want to hear the logic, the evidence, and the scientific consensus.

Okay, the issue is that your claim (and the claim from many Christians and in particular JW's) - that "the world is getting worse all the time" is something that can be and has been examined time and time again. The priest at my old church was always saying that the decline in worldwide church attendance is an example of this. Now he's right to a certain extent; because being active in a church has net benefit both for the individual and the broader community. That seems counterintuitive to many atheists, however it's a well established fact that this effect has been observed and written down in peer-review journals repeatedly. There's an abundance of evidence for that. But it's not all good either; in a paper titled Does Religion Affect Economic Growth and Happiness? Evidence from Ramadan by Campante & Yanagizawa-Drott (May 2015 - ) found that Ramadan does have a negative economic effect and stunts economic growth.

So with that in mind, consider the claim that "the world is getting worse and worse". Well, if that claim was first made by Christians in let's say the second century AD, then they've been making that claim now for 1900 years. So of course it's going to be true from time-to-time, it's bound to be true every so often. But what's interesting is that in our lifetime it is most certainly not true; and we've got excellent data that proves this. Life expectancy is UP - all across the world. Living conditions is UP - all across the world. Happiness, Security and Wellbeing are also UP. Wealth is UP. All of these good things are up and are still increasing. This is all a direct effect from the industrial revolution; and from the progresses that have been made since then. For instance, in abandoning the laissez-faire socio-economic model; the shift (generally speaking) AWAY from victim-blaming; and the shift towards greater equality among all people in a country. Some of that gels quite well with the message from the New Testament; however some of it doesn't. Progressive taxation is an excellent example; the God of the Bible - Jehovah - thought all people should pay the same tax rate, which he called a "tithe", and set at 10%. It was to be paid to religious officials. Well, we now know that type of taxation system isn't fair to those who are disadvantaged, and who earn less.

In addition to all of this, we now near-universally recognise a number of human rights. Including the right to safe affordable food, safe affordable housing, clean drinking water, and additionally in Australia we also recognise some specific rights for people who identify as Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander . Furthermore, all citizens have the right to vote - regardless of whether they're Indigenous or Non-Indigenous, male, or female. All citizens have the right to due process, and the right to access courts and tribunals to settle civil and criminal disputes. For example, all married people regardless of whether they're male or female have the right to file for a divorce - assuming they've met the conditions (that is that they are married and have been separated from their spouse for 12 or more months). This is very different to what the Bible teaches. Read it for yourself - a divorce is something that a man has a right to, and he can hand it to his wife and "send her away". Women in the Bible are not allowed to divorce their husbands.


"The husband cannot be guilty of a rape committed by himself upon his lawful wife, for by their mutual consent and contract the wife hath given up herself in this kind unto her husband, which she cannot retract" -Sir Matthew Hale as Chief Justice in 1673.

What about Domestic Violence? We now recognise that as an important social AND criminal issue. But that's a relatively recent change and reflect the change in attitude that has occurred overtime in the broader community. When Hale said those words in 1673 they influenced the laws in the UK, in the USA, and in Australia until just recently. It was the period from the early 1980's to the mid 1990's that saw the legal protection for spouses involved in domestic violence repealed, and the laws updated in a direction to protect victims: such as making it a crime, imposing penalties, and giving the police additional powers. Under Australia's influence, in 2013 PNG criminalised domestic violence. Now to put this in perspective, we have accepted a number of refugees from PNG over the years who have fled domestic violence - but the number is tiny perhaps 20 people a year or so. That's not going to do anything as an intervention to help ordinary PNG citizens. So this is just another example of the positive progress that is being made in the world. As you can see I've provided you with several examples, and there are plenty more I can provide you with: there really is no shortage of examples of the clear social benefits and progress that has been made over the last century or so. You're clearly an intelligent person nicanica123, and you are capable of finding a lot more examples of improvements that have been made over the past century or so.

If you had an everyday Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, and one of Jehovah's Witnesses at your home and you had them explain their beliefs using reason and scriptural basis I guarantee you that 9 times of 10 the Witness would have more scriptural basis and logical reasoning for their belief. Now that doesn't mean much to you but the point is, I have deeply entrenched views and I'm not going disregard them just because someone says, "well, you know you're wrong right?"

I disagree entirely. You may have been taught that JW's know the Bible better than other Christians, but that just is not true. In fact it's so far from the truth that I ask you to show me any academic institutions anywhere in Australia that are run by JW academics? Is there any - even one? There are many Catholic and non-denominational Bible colleges, and plenty of examples that are focused towards a particular denomination (Moore College - Anglican for example).

For whatever reason, over half the worlds population seems to believe in this god (muslims, christians, and jews) so there was something that got us here. Maybe it is simply just because of tradition and the one god that by chance made it big. I don't really know... So when people tell me, "what does it matter? I could claim that my pet dog told me 9/11 would happen a month before it did" Yeah of course, but if there is some kind of truth to that claim it would have to be explored? And if it is easily dismissed then it is easily dismissed. My bottom line is this, I don't need absolute certainty but I'm not going to let anyone convince me of something just because they said so

What you seem to forget though is that there are over 2,000 deities; many of whom are still believed in today. Jehovah is just one deity out of those 2,000+ deities. And you in fact disbelieve in the vast majority of them - so does everyone else. So among the religious they believe in just 0.05% of deities. Atheists agree 99.95% with that assessment made by the average religious person - the only difference is that that they don't believe in any of the deities (0.00%).

nicanica123- may I ask how old you are?

Many great points. I am 27 and I only meant that an EVERYDAY JW compared to an EVERYDAY (insert bible based religion) would know more about the bible. I know for a fact that this is true because I have been knocking on doors since I was a child and when I was 10 I could use more scriptures to explain many of my basic beliefs than an adult catholic, mormon, Presbyterian, etc. I even think its humorous that you're an atheist but you still invoke scripture to base some beliefs not held by witnesses, i.e. the trinity. We can agree that if the bible is bunk then we have nothing to argue about but I still think that I can quote way more scripture to differentiate Jesus and Jehovah than you can claiming they're the same. I also think its funny when Atheist bring up how certain moral grounds have improved. Because that does imply an objective moral value. Which is seems to make the moral argument valid. Again, I know that an average JW could explain their beliefs via the bible better than 80-90% of any other AVERAGE bible based religious person. 

[The Grand Nudger]

You're probably biased, I imagine that most christians -of every stripe- feel that they can adequately explain their beliefs better than the other christians (othey'd be those -other christians-) eh?  Perhaps those you speak with cannot explain their beliefs by reference to the bible -to your satisfaction-....but that's to be expected, as you are/were one of those "other christians"......their explanations would not be expected to satisfy you...in the same way that yours are not satisfying to them.

[robvalue]

Morality has got better because what humans have decided is moral has got better. Better is a subjective word, of course. It's a fairer, more equal world, in civilised countries at least. If you don't think that is better, I'm not sure what you want.

If we stuck with "objective" morality, we'd still have slavery, as endorsed by the bible. We'd have stoning to death for minor infractions. Need I go on? Should we bring back slavery? Should we bring back rape victims being forced to marry their rapists? Should we bring back women not being allowed to talk in church?

If it was only applicable to that time and that culture, then it is not objective.

[pocaracas]

Should we bring back rape victims being forced to marry their rapists?

Let me get this straight.. If I'm already married, and I rape a girl, then she has to marry me and I get two wives for the price of one?
What's keeping me from gathering up a harem?
Oh, my!!

[Won2blv]

You're probably biased, I imagine that most christians -of every stripe- feel that they can adequately explain their beliefs better than the other christians (othey'd be those -other christians-) eh?  Perhaps those you speak with cannot explain their beliefs by reference to the bible -to your satisfaction-....but that's to be expected, as you are/were one of those "other christians"......their explanations would not be expected to satisfy you...in the same way that yours are not satisfying to them.

Maybe you're right, but I can say from personal experience with engaging other christians about their beliefs is that most don't. Jw's are pretty much the only religion that goes out to preach in public and door to door. We go with a scriptural message. I know that I have met a few people that knew the bible very well but that was the exception. The rule is that most people I have talked can't scripturally explain their beliefs. Think about it, a lot of research has shown that atheist know the bible better than most christians. Its not like its a high bar in the first place. But I would stake a million dollars that if you took 1000 everyday JW's, 1000 everyday Catholics, and a 1000 everyday Mormons that the JW's could use more scriptures to explain their beliefs. 

[pocaracas]

Odd... "most people I have talked can't scripturally explain their beliefs."
I was under the impression that belief was a requirement for accepting all the bible stuff. You make it seem like it's the other way around... Is it the bible ramblings that make people believe in the existence of god?

[Won2blv]

Morality has got better because what humans have decided is moral has got better. Better is a subjective word, of course. It's a fairer, more equal world, in civilised countries at least. If you don't think that is better, I'm not sure what you want.

If we stuck with "objective" morality, we'd still have slavery, as endorsed by the bible. We'd have stoning to death for minor infractions. Need I go on? Should we bring back slavery? Should we bring back rape victims being forced to marry their rapists? Should we bring back women not being allowed to talk in church?

If it was only applicable to that time and that culture, then it is not objective.

But you're implying that things were worse and now they're better. Which itself implies a best. IDK, but it is something that I find interesting and think about. Am I wrong for arguing the beliefs that I have had engrained in me for years? I am not someone that changes my opinion easily. I have a gut feeling that God doesn't exist but I still have a lot to work through