Biblical Prayer Contradictions

[Drich]

Amazing argument. I love all the judgments that you cast forth on me about knowing nothing about theology, and having a bigoted stereotype on a book that I’m not intelligent enough to understand.

I’m glad you have the intelligence enough to believe in:  god needing to create a savior so that he may be so kind as to forgive us, virgin births, Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, Jesus walking on water plus many other alleged miracles, talking snakes, talking donkeys, talking burning bushes, god wanting to kill Moses for some reason and his son’s foreskin saves his life, Noah’s ark, god creating a woman out of a rib, the Sodom and Gomorrah destruction, god giving Samson the power to kill 1,000 people with a donkey’s jawbone, an iron axe head floating in water, Saul wanting 100 foreskins in exchange for his daughter to marry David, god making a sundial’s shadow move backwards, Jonah’s sleep-over inside the whale, and Jacob putting sticks with stripes on them in front of the cattle’s water troughs so his plain cattle could breed striped and spotted cattle.

I know it must blow your mind that people would be skeptical of this short list out of a much lengthier list of examples that I could have used, but surprisingly there’s people out there, according to you, that don’t have the intelligence to comprehend such wisdom I guess. It must make you feel so smart to be around so many people on here, that don’t think any of that makes sense.

Two things..

One Ignorance is the birth place of bigotry and stereotypes, so your self proclaimed ignorance of the bible puts you in a prime spot to spot bigoted things about God and the Christian Faith.

Two what does this new list of things have to do with God not answering your "prayer"/petitions? Or is this another red herring attempt?

[vorlon13]

I guess I don't see much difference between being bigoted against 39,999 schisms or 40,000 . . . .

[Drich]

Mk 11:24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Didn't we do this all once before? You throw out random verses from a concordance search and then I cut and paste the whole contextual verse beside what you said, to put the orginal biblical spin back on the verse you took out of context?

Mark 11:22 Jesus answered, “Have faith in God. 23 The truth is, you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, mountain, fall into the sea.’ And if you have no doubts in your mind and believe that what you say will happen, then God will do it for you. 24 So I tell you to ask for what you want in prayer. And if you believe that you have received those things, then they will be yours.

JUST Like Last Time (post #11)
In Context Jesus is telling the Deciples more over specifically He is speaking directly to Peter, and not to you or anyone else. Even so, Jesus is directly speaking about moving Mountains of doubt that was keeping peter from being who he needed to be. Jesus gave Peter a way to address his doubt. While directed at Peter this still can apply to us.

Mt 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Again, Just like last time:
is a retelling of what we just discussed in Mark.

Lk 11:9-10 So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Again Just like Post 11 says:
"Lk 11:9-13,5-6 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose one of you went to your friend’s house very late at night and said to him, ‘A friend of mine has come into town to visit me. But I have nothing for him to eat. Please give me three loaves of bread.’ 7 Your friend inside the house answers, ‘Go away! Don’t bother me! The door is already locked. My children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you the bread now.’ 8 I tell you, maybe friendship is not enough to make him get up to give you the bread. But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask. 9 So I tell you, continue to ask, and God will give to you. Continue to search, and you will find. Continue to knock, and the door will open for you. 10 Yes, whoever continues to ask will receive. Whoever continues to look will find. And whoever continues to knock will have the door opened for them. 11 Do any of you have a son? What would you do if your son asked you for a fish? Would any father give him a snake? 12 Or, if he asked for an egg, would you give him a scorpion? Of course not! 13 Even you who are bad know how to give good things to your children. So surely your heavenly Father knows how to give the Holy Spirit to the people who ask him.”

Maybe read the passage above with a fresh perspective and pay close attention to the embolden parts...
(Because we are supposed to be asking for the Holy Spirit, not making wishes for crap we want.)"

Jn 14:13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Since you seem bent on just repeating what you already said I will do the same here as well:
I guess the problem here is you don't understand what it means to "Ask for something in the name of Christ." It doesn't mean to end your prayer in 'Jesus name." It means Ask in the name of or on the behalf of.. Which means you have to ask for no more, or no less than the person who's name your asking in, would ask for/give you. It is the same as speaking for someone or speaking in their name. When you speak in someone's name you are representing that person which means you should not say anything that person would not have to say.

So what Does Jesus want us to ask in his name? It is outlined in the first part of luke 11 (The part you skipped)

Jn 15:7, 15 Jesus said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch[a] of mine that does not produce fruit. He also trims every branch that produces fruit to prepare it to produce even more. 3 You have already been prepared to produce more fruit by the teaching I have given you. 4 Stay joined to me and I will stay joined to you. No branch can produce fruit alone. It must stay connected to the vine. It is the same with you. You cannot produce fruit alone. You must stay joined to me.

5 “I am the vine, and you are the branches. If you stay joined to me, and I to you, you will produce plenty of fruit. But separated from me you won’t be able to do anything. 6 If you don’t stay joined to me, you will be like a branch that has been thrown out and has dried up. All the dead branches like that are gathered up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 Stay joined together with me, and follow my teachings. If you do this, you can ask for anything you want, and it will be given to you. 8 Show that you are my followers by producing much fruit. This will bring honor[c] to my Father.

In the context here if you are apart of Christ, then 'anything you want' will be what Christ wants for you. Otherwise how could one petition (not pray that is a separate thing) for something God does not want for them?

Here’s my answer to your request for examples how your prayer and petition theory is ridiculous:

It's not a theory sport. Jesus in Luke 11 starting at verse 1 teaches us one singular way to pray. If you go outside that example then know you are petitioning God for stuff, and no longer praying. Paul again teaches this in several different places as well.

Your pathetic attempt at dodging these verses with, “You don’t understand what prayer and petition is” is actually pointless and not too intelligent.

Then show me where Jesus is asking for random stuff and not following the model prayer He sets us up with in Luke 11! Even in the garden when He is asking the Father not to go to the cross, yet He seeks The Father's will and not His own, per "The Lord's prayer.' If thier was ever a reason to ask for something you want, not being crucified is that reason. But, in the end Jesus did not ask for what He wanted, He sought God's will rather than his own.
So bottom line, If you think prayer is a willy nilly wishing ceremony, show me in the bible it being used that way. Other wise know, that if we are not praying using the outline Jesus Himself gave us in the Lord's prayer, then we are not praying to God we are petitioning God for favors. That is the very definition of the word petition. To make a formal request to authority.

You contradict your lord and savior’s words.

Because I do not agree with you on what prayer is? Show me in the bible sport.

If you read your lord’s words your little argument falls apart.

Do you mean what you highlighted and then repeated back to me? No. Again Context, Context, Context. When you put your verses back into their Orginal context they have a completely different meaning.

Your petition theory, is actually called prayer, according to jesus. “Whatever you ask in prayer”,

Again, (this time read what I write) verse 24 directly Refers to verse 22 and 23: 22 Jesus answered, “Have faith in God. 23 The truth is, you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, mountain, fall into the sea.’ And if you have no doubts in your mind and believe that what you say will happen, then God will do it for you. 24 So I tell you to ask for what you want in prayer.

Christ is Speaking directly to the deciples (not you/or a crowd of people but to the inner 12) He is telling them to Ask whatever they need to ask for in order to establish and maintain their beliefs. As such they were able to do most all of the same things Jesus himself was able to do. We have been given the Holy Spirit to establish and maintain out system of belief. To which we can ask for whatever it is we need, to establish and live with full assureances, but we need to do so in Jesus' Name. Not in our own. Meaning we need to ask for the things Christ would want for us to have not the stuff we want to have.

“You will receive what you ask for in prayer”, “Ask and it will be given to you”, and “I will do whatever you ask in my name” are quotes that may help with your dilemma to understand my reasoning.

Again, your 'quotes' were a promise given to 12 specific men and not all of humanity. How is it that you can not see Jesus is directly speaking to His deciples and not to large groups or gatherings of people? It's not like He never had the opportunity. He was put infront of thousands upon thousands of people at once, and never once did He make this proclaimation to them. No, He only offered this to His deciples. It wasn't till after penticost in acts2 that God offers the Holy Spirit to the rest of humanity.

So, a petition directed towards jesus, is a prayer according to your lord, are you going to argue with him?

Why would jesus use the words ASK, when referring to prayer? I actually think it’s you who doesn’t understand what a prayer and what a petition is.

Look at Luke 11 starting at verse 1 forward. (this is the model of actual Prayer)
Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:


Our Father in heaven,[a]
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.[b]
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

3
Give us day by day our daily bread.

4
And forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.”[c]
Do you see anything but Jesus teach His diciples how to ASK God to provide the things listed?

Again look at verse one His disciples wanted to know how to pray so they ask Jesus to teach them. The above is the ONLY EXAMPLE OF PRAYER! It is not meant to be a chant but an out line. An outline I have broken down for you in post 16
If you want to truly pray to God one must follow this outline.

Again Prayer is about Changing our minds and Hearts to Follow what God wants for us, and not a way for us to manipulate God. How foolish and proud does one have to be to think He can Change what God wants?

Not that their is anything wrong with petitioning God. Paul tells us it is ok to do so, but He also reminds us not to forget to pray as well in Phil 4:
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by[b] prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
And again in 1Tim 2:1, and in Hebrews 5:7. In all three instances Paul reminds us to Pray, and to Petition God. Now if it is as you say and prayer and petition/supplication in some translations are the same, then why did He need to remind us of both?

a simply word study will give you the truth of the matter.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Two what does this new list of things have to do with God not answering your "prayer"/petitions? Or is this another red herring attempt?

It has to do with you saying how I don’t have the intelligence enough to understand the wisdom of this book. So, I was giving you some examples to maybe change your mind about the wisdom in this moronic book, but you enjoy just brushing off the insane things written in it. Somehow, it rings true to you, that this is the word of god.

Didn't we do this all once before? You throw out random verses from a concordance search and then I cut and paste the whole contextual verse beside what you said, to put the orginal biblical spin back on the verse you took out of context?

Yes we did, and you completely dodged what it says in all of those verses, even with the verses ‘in context’.

Mark 11:22 Jesus answered, “Have faith in God. 23 The truth is, you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, mountain, fall into the sea.’ And if you have no doubts in your mind and believe that what you say will happen, then God will do it for you. 24 So I tell you to ask for what you want in prayer. And if you believe that you have received those things, then they will be yours.

JUST Like Last Time (post #11)
In Context Jesus is telling the Deciples more over specifically He is speaking directly to Peter, and not to you or anyone else. Even so, Jesus is directly speaking about moving Mountains of doubt that was keeping peter from being who he needed to be. Jesus gave Peter a way to address his doubt. While directed at Peter this still can apply to us.

You are strengthening my argument. He’s saying that if you have faith in god, you will be able to do anything. Yes, he is speaking to Peter, and Yes this applies to us, if you want to listen to Jesus’s words. Thanks.

Maybe read the passage above with a fresh perspective and pay close attention to the embolden parts..

Ok, I read your whole Luke passage you wanted me to read, as I did before making my original post. He says: “But he will surely get up to give you what you need if you continue to ask.” This is just untrue again. If you keep asking someone for something, they don’t always eventually end up giving it to you. The next sentence is saying: continue to ask god, and he will give it to you. Not, continue to ask the man in the house for more bread, and he will give it to you. Either way, they’re both false. You’re strengthening my argument again.

Since you seem bent on just repeating what you already said I will do the same here as well:

That’s because you continue to dodge the quotes I provided you with, and tell me that I haven’t read it in context. You want to give the whole verse ‘in context’, as if I hadn’t read it.

It's not a theory sport. Jesus in Luke 11 starting at verse 1 teaches us one singular way to pray. If you go outside that example then know you are petitioning God for stuff, and no longer praying. Paul again teaches this in several different places as well.

And again, you ignore the verses, you point to some other verse as your explanation. That’s called being dishonest. When you can’t give a straight answer to almost anything that I Have pointed out, and you have to point to something else as your answer, that should indicate to you that something is wrong in the bible. Then you point to Paul’s teachings. Again, you have something you prefer not to answer, and again you point elsewhere.

It's not a theory sport.

You're right. It's a dishonest interpretation. Must I quote what jesus says again and again?

Jesus in Luke 11 starting at verse 1 teaches us one singular way to pray

Completely incorrect again. I gave you quotes of what Jesus had said about ASKING for something in prayer, and AGAIN you dodged it.

Because I do not agree with you on what prayer is? Show me in the bible sport.

Your answer, this time, isn’t pointing elsewhere, it’s just a laughter emoticon. I showed you in the bible already when Jesus said, that if you ASK for anything in prayer, it will be given to you, but again you are incapable of comprehending something so simple.

Do you mean what you highlighted and then repeated back to me?

I’m done doing that, don’t worry. You don’t seem to understand it, so I give up.

I ask you this: Why would jesus use the words ASK, when referring to prayer?  You answer me with: “The answer is Luke 11”. Yes, the Lord’s Prayer. So, Jesus says to pray using the Lord’s Prayer, and in the multiple other verses you dodged, he indicates that prayer is also asking of things that you want, and that he will answer them.

I’m done responding to you, because you are AMAZINGLY DISHONEST. You can’t seem to grasp, that the bible is full of contradictions, inaccurate material, and fairy tales. Then, when I give you examples of them, you accuse me of using fallacies. You can take your question dodging, your dishonesty, and laughter emoticons to some other thread, because I am done wasting my time with you on this thread. You are incapable of having an intelligent, and honest conversation.

[Minimalist]

Drippy is an apologist.  He's merely not very good at it.

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:


Our Father in heaven,[a]
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.[b]
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.

3
Give us day by day our daily bread.
[/b]

So your fucking "god" is happy having the same rote shit repeated endlessly by his sheeple?  How very muslim of him!  You always make your god seem like a complete putz, drippy.  I imagine that is because you use yourself as a model.

[Salacious B. Crumb]

Drippy is an apologist.  He's merely not very good at it.

Not to mention, a christian apologist. Something that is impossible to be good at it.

[Godscreated]

After reading parts of the bible recently, I became inspired by some divine force, to elaborate on the prayer contradiction that I first heard from George Carlin years ago. Hopefully you guys get some enjoyment out of it, and see how much more it actually contradicts itself with regards to god's will for us, and praying.

Keep in mind this verse: Pro 30:5-6 5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

- So, you're being a good little boy/girl, praying in your room. -- You start to realize that your prayers aren't being answered. -- You recite the classic, perpetual mantra of doom, "Maybe it's not god's will."

- However, I disagree. The bible says, whatever you ask for will be given to you. (Ps 34:17, Mk 11:24, Mt 21:22, Lk 11:9-13, Jn 14:13, Jn 15:7, Jn 16:23-24)

- Even though, still, your prayers go unanswered. Although, the bible, still tells us to pray unceasingly. (Col 4:2, 1 Thes 5:17-18)

- But, why would god ask you to pray, if he won't answer you? -- Why bother praying if the loving god knows what you need? -- The thought of prayer would have never come across your mind, because god would have provided what you needed in the first place.

- You decide to plead to god for wisdom. Jas 1:5 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. Again, you're ignored.

- He, then, wants you to put your trust in him. Pro 3:5-6 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; 6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

- After all of this, how can someone put their trust in him? Let's read on..1 Pet 6:7 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Evidently, he cares for us.

- Eph 5:-17-19 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit -- (I used to be jesus boy and talked like that, and nothing happened) How are we supposed to know god's will, if he won't answer our prayers or provide us with his wisdom? Aren't we already doing his will? Isn't everything going according to his plan? Obviously, no, according to my previous bullet points.

- In summation, he tells us that he will answer our prayers, then doesn't. He tells us to never cease from praying, even though he disregards us. He doesn't give us his wisdom, and he wants you to trust him without providing any evidence that he exists, let alone, evidence he actually cares. But, don't worry, he loves you. 1 Jn 4:8 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This actually isn't true, because I love, and I do not know god. Also, if god was love, I'd know him!

- Don't forget to thank him for all of his love that he's bestowed upon you. (1 Chr 16:34, Col 3:17, 1 Thes 5:16-18, Ps 95:2, Ps 107:1, Ps 118:1, Ps 136:1) I'm certain I can poke more holes in god's holy word of absolute nonsense, but this will do for now. Any one else see any problems here? Christians, your faith shouldn't be this easy to dismantle. Any of you guys care to enlighten me here; am I not interpreting this right?

You dismantled your own faith not mine, God has answered my prayers, proved himself to me, shown me what He desires me to do and much more. Seems you are the one who has the problem of not being able to hear or see who God is.

GC

[Minimalist]

That's nice, G-C...now take your meds and go back to your rubber room with the friendly men in the white coats.

[Godscreated]

That's nice, G-C...now take your meds and go back to your rubber room with the friendly men in the white coats.

I'd rather come over and pee in your sandbox.

GC

[Salacious B. Crumb]

You dismantled your own faith not mine, God has answered my prayers, proved himself to me, shown me what He desires me to do and much more.

Good one, what is it like living in a dream world, where everything that happens is god's will? What is it like to sit there and read one passage of the bible and go to a different section, and it says something that completely contrasts the previous verse, and then you have to ignore it, or make some dumbass excuse for it? What prayers has god answered for you? How has god proved himself to you?

Is it those warm and fuzzy feelings you get when you pray? Is that your proof that god exists?