SATAN!

[SleepingDemon]

No, I don't believe in satan, lucifer, hades, or anything of the like. It is very easy for us to demonize and deify things we do not understand, and we have done so for millenia.

[Godscreated]

SAE I've been going over the verses you quoted and will take my time to research each one. I'm also very busy at work at this time of year so this may take longer than I would like so please be patient with me. I have gone over Matthew 15:4-7 first because it deals with Exoudus 21:17 and with the OT and NT. I find your paraphrase of these verses lacking in understanding and research. First Jesus was not accused it was His disciples and He was not defending them or Himself He was taking an opportunity to teach a lesson to the disciples more than anything else. Yes the Pharisees and scribes got angry at Him but truth has a way of doing that when one is in the wrong I know this all to well.
Sae you quoted verses 4-7 eliminating the first and last part of the lesson Jesus is teaching His disciples. The lesson goes through verse 20 but can be divided at verse 9 for study purposes.
Jesus was approached by the Pharisees and scribes and asked why His disciples transgressed (broke) the traditions of the elders. As you know this was about the washing of hands before eating and they taught this as if it were the law of God. Isaiah 29:13,Matthew 15:9
In verse 3 Jesus asked them (Pharisees) why they would break the law of God yet keep the tradition of man. Jesus wanted His disciples to see that no tradition is more important than the laws of God and this is why He uses the next two verses from the OT.
The first verse as you know is from the Ten Commandments "Honor thy father and mother" and then Exodus 21:17 dealing with the disrespect of ones parents.
In verse 5 Jesus says they made a law to get around Ex.21:17 which says if a person gives as gifts or offerings to God things that could be used to take care of their elderly parents they did not have to sacrifice anything they had left to help their parents. He's telling them the tradition they made is disrespecting Gods law by disrespecting their parents. Jesus wants His disciples to understand that to write law that is contrary to Gods law can cause great problems for others. In this chase to get around Ex.21:17 causes great hardship for those elderly parents who can not financially help themselves.
Verses 7-9 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13 saying you hypocrites you only give lip serves to the Father and you teach your traditions as if they were Gods law.
Jesus is showing His disciples that the Pharisees and scribes make a big deal out of a small issue (washing of hands) instead of teaching Gods true law and living it for an example to others.

When you study all the relevant verses to a questionable verse you can find the truth of said verse Ex.21:17. I know this verse says curse and if I'm correct the word used in the Hebrew for curse has a meaning that actually means great disrespect or dishonoring. I'll have to research this also however I'm sure this is what it means.

[Loki_999]

Jumping in a bit late here and not read all posts so don't flame me if i'm bringing up old shit...

Satan is a bit of an enigma. Either you take your view of Satan from only the bible, or from other sources. Non xtians are quite free to use whatever sources they like and thus you can end up with interpretations like LaVey or any of the other variants. For those who have read Mike Cary's Lucifer comics and really paid attention you will find they too ideas from not only the bible, but all the apocrypha, pseudographia (spelling?), plus borrowed a fair bit from the other Abrahamic religions as well, not to mention just making stuff up as well.

However, it is the Christians who made a big thing out of Satan (eg: compared to Islam where Satan is just a djinn), and created an entire fantasy about there being a Hell where bad people are sent by their loving god (who forgives all, because Jesus died for our sins - prepaid in advance), and in Hell Satan and his devils/demons will torture you for eternity (you can just feel the love of God can't you?).

So, we should look to the bible of our definition of God.

Where does Satan actually appear? Well, the big appearance is in Job. In this book we learn Satan is one of the sons of god, has been wandering around the earth, not doing much, but then gets into a discussion with God about his most faithful servant Job. God gives Satan the power to do as he pleases with Job and his possessions. Note, Satan didn't ask for this... God basically said, go and wreak my servants life. Which Satan like a good son did.

So, who is the bad guy here? The worst thing you can say about Satan from the book of Job is - Like Father like Son.

As for the rest of the sparse references from the bible, there are sayings that people go to Satan to learn not to be uncouth (doesn't sound like ruler of hell here, more like a teacher), and that Satan entered Judas to betray Jesus... hmmm? The first example of someone blaming Satan for their own choices and actions?

Actually, i couldn't find anything much in the Bibble that portrays Satan in a real bad way. Hell for a long time we have known is just a mistranslation of "sheol" (spelling?), which means the earth/underground.

The serpent in the Garden of Eden was never referred to as Satan (in the canon bible) so unless you accept non-canon works (which the christian church does not) there is no link here.

Conclusion: Satan, son of God, not a particularly bad supernatural being, he got some bad press in the NT, but in his main appearance in the bible is not a force of evil, just playing along with daddy's game of destroying the life of some mortal.

[aufis]

Loki 999 said

"Where does Satan actually appear? Well, the big appearance is in Job. In this book we learn Satan is one of the sons of god, has been wandering around the earth, not doing much, but then gets into a discussion with God about his most faithful servant Job. God gives Satan the power to do as he pleases with Job and his possessions. Note, Satan didn't ask for this... God basically said, go and wreak my servants life. Which Satan like a good son did.

i disagree.

first it is not said in the bible that satan in the son of God. some say satan was a former follower(angel of God) who rebelled(i did not know how did they get this). but in Genesis, satan was thrown out from paradise to the earth thats why satan was roaming around.

second God did not just said "go and wrak my servants life" in Job 1:8(New International Version)
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
but satan answered on verses 9-11
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
Satan concluded that Job only fear God and shuns evil because he had a good living.

on verse 12

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
God challenged satan, in much simple way. Lord said to Satan "prove to me that Job only follow me because i gave him a good life. but don't harm him"

thats why Job was tested by satan.

just want to clarify something here

[Loki_999]

Yes, Satan was give the green light by God to mess with Job. God could have said the equivalent of "Piss off" to Satan, but he didnt.

Satan was trying to make a point, and God said, go right ahead, so of course Satan did. It doesn't mean that Satan was evil. Satan's role (i think according to non-canon sources... possibly Jewish?) was of Accuser. Maybe he was simply playing his (god appointed) role here?

As for not saying in the bible Satan is the Son of God....

New International version says this:
One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

New American Standard version says this:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

The Message says this:
One day when the angels came to report to God, Satan, who was the Designated Accuser, came along with them. God singled out Satan and said, "What have you been up to?"

New Living translation:
One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.

King James...:
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Young's literal:
And the day is, that sons of God come in to station themselves by Jehovah, and there doth come also the Adversary in their midst.

and i'll throw in a Russian version as well:
"И был день, когда пришли сыны Божии предстать пред Господа; между ними пришел и сатана."
Which basically translates similar to the King James version, although Господа could actually be translated as Gentlemen... not God.

Ok, actually you may be right. It doesn't specifically say that Satan is the son of god when it uses this phrase. However, Satan is accepted as an angel by most, albeit a fallen one. So if we accept Satan as an angel and are happy with this when we use this translation, then surely when the translation reads "sons of god" then we have to accept Satan as a son of God.

Or do you say those versions which use sons of god are incorrectly translated? Or does sons of god not mean literally his sons?

I suppose its all down to the person interpreting the word of God? Or, as we all know quite well, you can always find meaning in the bible to match your own view.

You say Satan is a bad guy, i read it differently, Satan is a decent guy, its God that is the S.o.B.

[aufis]

on the young's literal i did not read the word satan(guess it should not be taken literally but i couldn't understand)

on KJV

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

on a point to point basis, Lucifer" may be" was the son of God before he rebelled(considering the fact that all angels were created by God and that the father of angel is GOd). because evil did not come from God. it was created by Lucifer when he started to rebel.

it is said satan "ALSO came among them" meaning satan was just going along with them(as i understand)
it is not said "ALSO was among them/was among them(im not good in grammar)

God's point is Job do not fear God because of his good living
Satan's point is Job only fear God because of his good living
Satan started the argument
God was just proud of JOB(job 1:8NIV)
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
-----

God did not give the green light to "mess" with Job, he said
in job 1:12(NIV)
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
on a simple manner, he just allowed satan to make an experiment with him.
it is Satan's will to lead that experiment on making mess with JOB(sorry for wrong grammar)

[Loki_999]

<quote>he just allowed satan to make an experiment with him.</quote>

Which is one of my points. Shouldn't God protect his followers?

I mean, if you look at a lot of other religions, their gods protected them from evil forces (except when their followers pissed them off of course). In this case, Job was a devout follower doing exactly as God wanted him to behave... yet God still allowed him to be shat on from a great height.

[Violet]

SAE I've been going over the verses you quoted and will take my time to research each one.

/whew... this is going to be... long...

I'm also very busy at work at this time of year so this may take longer than I would like so please be patient with me.

If my name were patience: i would be on better terms with those who named me than I am of now, though I'd still be changing it, as I do not identify with patience ^_<

I have gone over Matthew 15:4-7 first because it deals with Exoudus 21:17 and with the OT and NT. I find your paraphrase of these verses lacking in understanding and research.

Righto, then let us take the verse itself, pulled from a non-annotated source. Biblegateway King James Version work for you? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=KJV

Matthew 15:
4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Frankly... i think we can scrap 7-onwards, because it seems that it completely changed track (evidence of multiple authors, hooray?).

So we have 4: Here God is saying that if you curse your father or mother: you die. Doesn't infer a single thing about age, and therefore I see no reason to place an inference that it is suggesting only old children should die for this.

And then we have 5 that throws a kink into it all, by making absolutely no sense whatsoever. Anyone care to translate this into English? Ah! Here it is from the New International Version: "5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'"... This is referring to a male child... heaven forbid it include women.

Screw it... i'm using NIV... much less terrible on the brain: "6he is not to 'honor his father[a]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."... okay never mind... it sucks too. Okay... now i'm all fucked up. I'll get to the rest later... but I rather don't feel up to banging my head into a brick wall to forget all of my English writing conventions... and I'm a deviant even as it is!



I'll get to the rest later then Leaving you're responses because I don't feel like deleting them

First Jesus was not accused it was His disciples and He was not defending them or Himself He was taking an opportunity to teach a lesson to the disciples more than anything else. Yes the Pharisees and scribes got angry at Him but truth has a way of doing that when one is in the wrong I know this all to well.
Sae you quoted verses 4-7 eliminating the first and last part of the lesson Jesus is teaching His disciples. The lesson goes through verse 20 but can be divided at verse 9 for study purposes.
Jesus was approached by the Pharisees and scribes and asked why His disciples transgressed (broke) the traditions of the elders. As you know this was about the washing of hands before eating and they taught this as if it were the law of God. Isaiah 29:13,Matthew 15:9
In verse 3 Jesus asked them (Pharisees) why they would break the law of God yet keep the tradition of man. Jesus wanted His disciples to see that no tradition is more important than the laws of God and this is why He uses the next two verses from the OT.
The first verse as you know is from the Ten Commandments "Honor thy father and mother" and then Exodus 21:17 dealing with the disrespect of ones parents.
In verse 5 Jesus says they made a law to get around Ex.21:17 which says if a person gives as gifts or offerings to God things that could be used to take care of their elderly parents they did not have to sacrifice anything they had left to help their parents. He's telling them the tradition they made is disrespecting Gods law by disrespecting their parents. Jesus wants His disciples to understand that to write law that is contrary to Gods law can cause great problems for others. In this chase to get around Ex.21:17 causes great hardship for those elderly parents who can not financially help themselves.
Verses 7-9 Jesus quotes from Isaiah 29:13 saying you hypocrites you only give lip serves to the Father and you teach your traditions as if they were Gods law.
Jesus is showing His disciples that the Pharisees and scribes make a big deal out of a small issue (washing of hands) instead of teaching Gods true law and living it for an example to others.

When you study all the relevant verses to a questionable verse you can find the truth of said verse Ex.21:17. I know this verse says curse and if I'm correct the word used in the Hebrew for curse has a meaning that actually means great disrespect or dishonoring. I'll have to research this also however I'm sure this is what it means.

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='65476' dateline='1271653194']
SAE I've been going over the verses you quoted and will take my time to research each one.

/whew... this is going to be... long...

Sae your the one who put forth the challenge.

I have a little time so here is another verse Romans 8:32. I do not know why you used this verse. It makes no sense when you are trying to present God as an evil being. How can a verse that shows the greatest love for us prove God is evil. This verse is about the sacrifice God made for mankind when He allowed Christ to give Himself unto death for our sins. Sae John 3:16, Romans 5:8 and Romans 4:25 are just a few verses that show us, that is, demonstrates Gods great love for mankind.

[aufis]

@Loki_999
God is concern of jacob
as you can see in Job 1:12(NIV)
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
It is written "But on the man himself do not lay a finger".
on other version(CEV)
" 12The LORD replied, "All right, Satan, do what you want with anything that belongs to him, but don't harm Job."
it is written "but don't harm job"

but Job is so faithful to God that he surpasses those trials that Satan gaved Him.

written in Job 42:12(NIV)
12The LORD now blessed Job more than ever; he gave him fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand pair of oxen, and a thousand donkeys.

He blessed Jacob "more than ever"

evidence/explanation for this is James 1:2-4(NIV)
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
prove by James 1:12(NIV)
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

God only let Satan to experiment him. he did not gave Satan the whole life of Job. If it is God who wants job to suffer then what is James1:2-12?

God allow to satan to let Satan know that there are people who do not just fear God and shuns evil because of their lifestyle but because of their faith.