SATAN!

[tavarish]

@Loki_999
God is concern of jacob
as you can see in Job 1:12(NIV)
12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
It is written "But on the man himself do not lay a finger".
on other version(CEV)
" 12The LORD replied, "All right, Satan, do what you want with anything that belongs to him, but don't harm Job."
it is written "but don't harm job"

If someone destroyed your house, killed your family, your pets, and your livelihood, all as a direct result of someone hedging a bet, would you consider that harming you?

but Job is so faithful to God that he surpasses those trials that Satan gaved Him.

Isn't that nice.

written in Job 42:12(NIV)
12The LORD now blessed Job more than ever; he gave him fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand pair of oxen, and a thousand donkeys.

He blessed Jacob "more than ever"

So the ends justify the means. If I punch a newborn baby square in the head, but then give the mother a new car because she didn't press charges, does that make me a moral person?

evidence/explanation for this is James 1:2-4(NIV)
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
prove by James 1:12(NIV)
12Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

God only let Satan to experiment him. he did not gave Satan the whole life of Job. If it is God who wants job to suffer then what is James1:2-12?

God allow to satan to let Satan know that there are people who do not just fear God and shuns evil because of their lifestyle but because of their faith.

God allows Job to suffer, despite already knowing that he would stay faithful, and knowing that such a deal with Satan would come up, YET HE DOES IT ANYWAY. You're completely missing the point that God literally took a dump on this guy's life just to prove a point to Satan. Did Satan learn anything? Did he convert and repent? No. He said "Oh, ok" and went on his way to do more bad shit, all the while Job has to live with the knowledge that God doesn't give a shit about life when there are points to prove about how powerful he is and who loves him the most. Yea, he got more cattle and shit. I'm going to start tazing stray cats, and the ones who still purr when they see me after a week will get all the cat food they can eat.

[LEDO]

God really pissed me off on this one. He wouldn't answer Job's questions. Rather God answered Job's questions with questions. Of course God never gave Job the answer to his own questions to prove that God knew the answers. God was ashamed he had fucked over Job because he was goaded into a silly bet with satan (lower case is correct) that he would never tell Job what happened. So I see in heaven a group of angels sitting around watching me, placing bets as to which hand I am going to choke my chicken next.

[Minimalist]

God was a dick, Ledo.

[aufis]

@tavarish
Job1:20-21(NIV) after his family, properties were lost.

20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

i would like to emphasize the two last sentences(or maybe one, im not good in grammar if ";" denotes two sentences)
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised"
its true. all things that he had(even his families) are all from God(moreover, even his life).

Only the flesh of his family died. but their souls lives forever then what is the problem for killing their flesh if even though they were killed they will live for eternity?
Job have faith so after the test he had more prosperous life in earth and much more in eternal life with his family, then whats the problem there?

"So the ends justify the means. If I punch a newborn baby square in the head, but then give the mother a new car because she didn't press charges, does that make me a moral person? " (sorry i don't know how to quote much more)

if you consider satan as a moral being then thats justifiable.


"God allows Job to suffer, despite already knowing that he would stay faithful, and knowing that such a deal with Satan would come up, YET HE DOES IT ANYWAY. You're completely missing the point that God literally took a dump on this guy's life just to prove a point to Satan. Did Satan learn anything? Did he convert and repent? No. He said "Oh, ok" and went on his way to do more bad shit, all the while Job has to live with the knowledge that God doesn't give a shit about life when there are points to prove about how powerful he is and who loves him the most. Yea, he got more cattle and shit. I'm going to start tazing stray cats, and the ones who still purr when they see me after a week will get all the cat food they can eat. "

well, were speaking dignity here. if God will not make a point then it means satan was right. to prove that satan is wrong he accepted the challenge of satan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@LEDO(sorry i don't know that satan is lower case. when i revisited "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan" satan is on uppercase.)

apologize sir, but can you please identify the verses when you say "God answered Job's questions with questions. Of course God never gave Job the answer to his own questions to prove that God knew the answers."

specially this one
"God was ashamed he had fucked over Job because he was goaded into a silly bet with satan (lower case is correct) that he would never tell Job what happened."

what do you mean when you say

"So I see in heaven a group of angels sitting around watching me, placing bets as to which hand I am going to choke my chicken next. "(maybe i'm takin it literally cause i can't understand it)

---

oh i forgot
@Minimalist

its how you believe it. i think we don't need to argue with this one. ^^

[KichigaiNeko]

@aufis

So this is your god?? And YOU CHOOSE to emulate this creature of your own devising???

You are one sick puppy...you know that don't you??

[aufis]

@KichigaiNeko

Its on how you percept it or how you believe it.


but let me clarify something,


"So this is your god?? And YOU CHOOSE to emulate this creature of your own devising???"

this is "our God" and he is not emulated in my own devising because He lives in my life.

"You are one sick puppy...you know that don't you?? "

for you, i am, but for others(maybe not the one here) i am not. and i know that because you don't believe.

i think we don't need to argue with this one because we have different perception/belief

[tavarish]

i would like to emphasize the two last sentences(or maybe one, im not good in grammar if ";" denotes two sentences)
"The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised"
its true. all things that he had(even his families) are all from God(moreover, even his life).

Only the flesh of his family died. but their souls lives forever then what is the problem for killing their flesh if even though they were killed they will live for eternity?

Let's paint this picture. Armed muggers come in tomorrow night and kill your family and burn down your house. Do you honestly see no problem with this? Would it be fine if you believed that the assailants were sent from God to test your faith? Would you honestly see NO PROBLEM with this?

Job have faith so after the test he had more prosperous life in earth and much more in eternal life with his family, then whats the problem there?

Because those are the actions of an insane, jealous, malevolent God, not a loving one.

"So the ends justify the means. If I punch a newborn baby square in the head, but then give the mother a new car because she didn't press charges, does that make me a moral person? " (sorry i don't know how to quote much more)

if you consider satan as a moral being then thats justifiable.

This is going by your God's example. The baby can heal, and I wasn't harming the mother directly. I give her a new car, something she was in need of for quite some time. Does that make me a bad person? Does my good deed wipe away the bad? Should it be forgotten and taken as a lesson that the ends justify the means?

well, were speaking dignity here. if God will not make a point then it means satan was right. to prove that satan is wrong he accepted the challenge of satan.

Apparently God, like many Christians, doesn't understand how burden of proof works. This is particularly disturbing as he felt he needed to prove a point when he already knew the fucking outcome beforehand.

[LEDO]

@tavarish





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@LEDO(sorry i don't know that satan is lower case. when i revisited "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan" satan is on uppercase.)

apologize sir, but can you please identify the verses when you say "God answered Job's questions with questions. Of course God never gave Job the answer to his own questions to prove that God knew the answers."

specially this one
"God was ashamed he had fucked over Job because he was goaded into a silly bet with satan (lower case is correct) that he would never tell Job what happened."

what do you mean when you say

"So I see in heaven a group of angels sitting around watching me, placing bets as to which hand I am going to choke my chicken next. "(maybe i'm takin it literally cause i can't understand it)

---

oh i forgot
@Minimalist

its how you believe it. i think we don't need to argue with this one. ^^

Yes, the lower case is correct as this "satan" is not THE SATAN of the Bible, but is used as a common noun. It is not my fault all the experts at wiki are wrong and I am right. It wouldn't be the first time.

Maybe you should Google "Choke your chicken."

God has a series of endless questions, chapters 38, 39, 41.

[Godscreated]

Sae I do not want you to think I'm cherry picking through the verses so I've chosen 2Kings2:23-24
This one is more difficult to explain to those who do not believe in God or His sovereignty. Elisha like all the other prophets was chosen by God to deliver messages to His people (the Jewish nation). God protects those He chooses for His work. Elisha was special to God and I believe this is why He allowed Elisha's curse to come upon the boys. The boys came from the village were God through Elisha purified the water that the village needed for drinking and watering their crops. The boys were disrespectful toward Elisha and Elisha being Gods messenger meant the boys were being disrespectful to the sovereign God.
I use three different translations to do my studies the NASB,NIV and ESV. Let's look at the point of contention in this story. You say that the she bears killed the boys however all three translations I use said they tore up (mauled) them not killed them. The word killed is not used so we can not assume they were killed without more evidence. The evidence I find in scripture is God honors and protects His prophets. Here are a couple of examples 2 Chronicals 36:9-21 and Psalm31:17-18. There are times such as 2 Chronicals 36:9-21 that God allows people to die when they dishonor a prophet of God i.e. God himself. I believe the same as Frodo that God is a just God and does not murder. He does take life but only in His sovereign judgment.

[aufis]

@tavarish

"Let's paint this picture. Armed muggers come in tomorrow night and kill your family and burn down your house. Do you honestly see no problem with this? Would it be fine if you believed that the assailants were sent from God to test your faith? Would you honestly see NO PROBLEM with this? "

you had just(almost) paint what happen to Job(maybe the same).
Then so, i would raise again the verse
Job1:20-21(NIV)
20 At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."

we christians believed "everything has it's purpose"(because it is written in the bible[just forgot the verses])
the negative part is that my family died. and i can raised the answer of Job
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
and thank that i am still alive
there's no problem with that to me because i believe in eternal life(well surely you don't believe in that cause there is no evidence[yet i believe][i guess this will be another argument, oh man an argument within an argument])
if then my family was killed, then should i take revenge? then when i take revenge, they will take revenge again, it began circular. at the first place if i take revenge then i am just like them(sorry for wrong grammar. guess you get my point)


"Because those are the actions of an insane, jealous, malevolent God, not a loving one. "

no one was killed at the first place.(if we believe in eternal life. since we are talking with the bible right here. we can take it for consideration)the flesh was just thrown away. the point is that, God proved his point correct and from Satan, wrong.

"This is going by your God's example. The baby can heal, and I wasn't harming the mother directly. I give her a new car, something she was in need of for quite some time. Does that make me a bad person? Does my good deed wipe away the bad? Should it be forgotten and taken as a lesson that the ends justify the means?"

then, if your Satan in the scenario, whats your point opposing God's point?

"Apparently God, like many Christians, doesn't understand how burden of proof works. This is particularly disturbing as he felt he needed to prove a point when he already knew the fucking outcome beforehand."

of course we don't, the burden is not that we lost someone because we believe in eternal life. Our burden is that when the person died. hows his/her deeds? is it pleasing(to God). having the consideration the Satan rules the world(see 2Cor 4:4[guess we could consider this as fact temporarily because we are talking with christians and also the bible here])

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@LEDO
Job 33:10-14(CEV)
10You claim that God
has made you his enemy,
11that he has bound your feet
and blocked your path.
12But, Job, you're wrong--
God is greater
than any human.
13So why do you challenge God
to answer you? [b] 14God speaks in different ways,
and we don't always
recognize his voice.
Job 38:1-2
1From out of a storm,
the LORD said to Job:
2Why do you talk so much
when you know so little?

what i can say is you haven't read the book of Job carefully(guess you don't even bother, [whats the bible(or Book of Job to you])
(maybe you'll bring that back to me[hahahaha] and say "you are the one who haven't read the book of Job carefully" "maybe" your right...[cause i'm not a bible scholar or a bible expert ] but if you can read it between the lines then you'll know what i meant)

ahh. God asked him series of question(you said endless) as it is stated that Job talk so much but knew so little. it is because he argued between his 3 friends and seems like he knew all things.
that is why God ask him series of question to prove to him that he's intelligence is nothing to God(oh here we go again, presenting out the word point)

--
ahh so well i understand what that means^^
guess we should take this argument close. i can't handle too much argument even if it entails only one subject. it's really confusing. lets continue this argument after this one(if you still have the time)

maybe giving you the word "i surrender" makes the point(oh not again!)