Atheists in Foxholes

[Minimalist]

I do wish people did a little less flag-waving on Memorial Day and a little more thinking about what it really means to the survivors.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/24/opinions/c...topstories

The U.S. Census Bureau counts 3.6 million veterans with a service-related disability. A significant percentage are victims of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury. It is estimated that at least 20% of Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans and 30% of Vietnam war veterans suffer from these issues.


These veterans also have alarmingly high rates of depression, unemployment, divorce, substance abuse and other problems, making them all the more vulnerable to homelessness. Female veterans, in particular, are confronted with additional problems, including family reunification issues.

Aw, fuck.  So much easier to stick a "Support Our Troops" magnet on your car.

[AFTT47]

I wore "atheist" on my dogtags ... but I was smart enough to join the Air Force, so no foxholes here

I served in D'haran, Saudi Arabia during Southern Watch as a member of the US Air Force, shortly after Desert Storm. I don't remotely think of myself as a hero for that but there were two incidents that took the lives of my fellow military members there. An Air National Guard unit was bombed there previously:

http://www.qmfound.com/14th_Quartermaste...chment.htm

and the living quarters I stayed in were bombed later:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_bombing

I wore "NO PREF" on my ID TAGS (I'm not a dog) which is what was available in 1985 when I joined. The "No Atheists in Fox Holes" thing pisses me off to no end. I sure as hell didn't change my beliefs during combat. If I had, that would have reflected on my own weakness - not the truth of my beliefs. If I had been killed there, I would have died an atheist - for all the good or bad it would have done me or anyone else.

[Thumpalumpacus]

[email protected] Chairforce!  You know I don't recall what I had put on my tags (had a few buddies with wiccan, one just said pagan), but I bet I was more concerned with whether or not they got my blood type right, lol, fucking typos can cost your life...!

Yeah, buddy -- that was the one that mattered.

lol@ "chairforce" -- the day I signed my intent to enlist, I got home and told my stepdad, a Marine veteran of Vietnam. He looked over the paper and said, "That's great ... shame you didn't join the military."

Rode a firetruck for four years, so while I don't know what it feels like to take incoming in a foxhole, I sure as hell know what it's like to be in a tight spot. I don't remember any brother firefighter praying before we went in -- we were too busy checking SCBA fit and mentally inventorying the tools we'd need to grab onscene.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wore "atheist" on my dogtags ... but I was smart enough to join the Air Force, so no foxholes here

Isn't the Air Force one of the more religious branches?

There have been a couple of scandals about proselytizing, but I don't know that it's any more religious than any other branch, andI might be surprised if it were.

I, and the other atheists with whom I served, were all open about our lack of faith -- we'd have BS sessions out in front of the fire station after chow, and religion came up enough in them. We never were treated any differently  by anyone of any rank at all, except for this one airman whose name escapes me, but who was pushy with his preaching. The courtesy we showed the other believers in our discussions was not present the moment he got preachy.  But other than that, we had some great conversations about our differences and I never suffered for it that I knew of.

---

I served in D'haran, Saudi Arabia during Southern Watch as a member of the US Air Force, shortly after Desert Storm. I don't remotely think of myself as a hero for that but there were two incidents that took the lives of my fellow military members there. An Air National Guard unit was bombed there previously:

http://www.qmfound.com/14th_Quartermaste...chment.htm

and the living quarters I stayed in were bombed later:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_bombing

A buddy of mine from fire school worked in  the Scud attack on the 14th's barracks.

Myself, I passed through Dhahran on my way to Riyadh in Mar 92, and on my way out in July of the same year.  Funny to think we might have been a hundred feet away from each other on that flightline 23 years ago.

I wore "NO PREF" on my ID TAGS (I'm not a dog) which is what was available in 1985 when I joined. The "No Atheists in Fox Holes" thing pisses me off to no end. I sure as hell didn't change my beliefs during combat. If I had, that would have reflected on my own weakness - not the truth of my beliefs. If I had been killed there, I would have died an atheist - for all the good or bad it would have done me or anyone else.

No doubt. I'm no combat troop, but as a firefighter, I can say we were far too busy doing our jobs to worry about incantations.

[LostLocke]

OK, not to sound naive, but I have to ask what the context of 'firefighter' is in the military? I'm assuming it's not the same thing we think of in the civilian sector?

[IATIA]

Short of farming and manufacturing, the military does everything. Though now days some of it it outsourced to the civilian community.

[LostLocke]

Oh, so they literally are firefighters? Just like what I see and think of in everyday life?

[Thumpalumpacus]

OK, not to sound naive, but I have to ask what the context of 'firefighter' is in the military? I'm assuming it's not the same thing we think of in the civilian sector?

Well, we were tasked with civilian firefighting duties, such as protecting buildings and other government property from fire, rescuing folks needing help, and such, but we also had some twists that were specific to the Air Force: we had to know crash fire-fighting, which is very different than structural firefighting -- you have to know stuff like how to shut down an airplane and safety the ejection seat, how to identify weapons so you understand the firefighting needs of the moment, that sort of thing. And if you were on a mobility team, as I was, you had to be proficient in small arms, and know the basics of tactical base defense (the thought being that if the base came under attack we would be supplementary troops.)

The jobs are mostly the same, though.

[The Grand Nudger]

Infantry, when they aren't fighting (which is most of the time) provide manual labor in support of other specialties - we cut the grass and pick up road trash, and such..lol.
(the service is an amusing reproduction of life in "the real world")

[JuliaL]

if I were in a foxhole I would pray to both satan and god, to maximize my chances

Or ya know, try to actually get out of the foxhole

In the exceptionally unlikely event that I was in a foxhole with unfriendlies trying to cause me discomfort, I'd be checking cell reception.

If I had bars, I'd make a call to M&M Enterprises to ensure that my payments had cleared and that the appropriate authorities were properly commanding the forces opposing.  In this case, 'properly commanding' means telling the baddies to go somewhere else.

I have lots more faith in cash than in prayer.