Why be good?

[robvalue]

I'm listening to the latest Atheist Experience, and Tracey gives a short talk at the start about morality which I think is very relevant to this discussion. As usual she's kicking names and taking ass.

http://www.atheist-experience.com/archiv...-05-24.mp3

The calls are really interesting too.

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If you go to 47:45 you will hear one of the sickest things ever from a Christian. He wants people who commit morality to be lashed or put to death. It shows what biblical "morality" can do to a person. I'm not saying this is representative, but I am saying the bible was involved in this person's decision to think this way. He also eventually says that he is fine with slavery. His mind has been totally rotted.

All this sick guy has to do to justify his opinion is to quote the bible. That is my problem. It says these things. It's just that nicer Christians find excuses as to why those rules don't apply anymore (God only used to be immoral) or never applied (denying the very things it says on the pages). Good for you though nice Christians, keep ignoring this immoral horseshit. Ignore as much as possible. Whatever it takes to say that this stuff is wrong, keep doing it. I want to live with nice people. There's a moral compass inside you which tells you these things are wrong. That makes you better and more moral than your God.

[Pyrrho]

The problem of course, is what happens if we lose access to our cheesecake and sex?  When there's one potato and 3 hungry families who haven't eaten in a day.  Then 'being good' goes out the window, and we hack eachother up with axes.

I actually disagree. I have seen people in desperation, hungry and homeless. In my experience, I have seen that people tend to come together with the most kindness and generosity when they are in these trying times. Sure, bad things happen but I honestly believe that on average people are naturally predisposed to be "good".

Your experience fits with research that has been done on this.  One can find plenty of articles about this topic, but here is an easy introduction for people:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31761576


Basically, lots of money seems to make people assholes.  (That explains why it is hard to find a really rich person who isn't a jerk.)  Read the article, all of you doubters.

If you want more, here is another article:

http://nymag.com/news/features/money-bra...ndex3.html


For more, use your favorite search engine.

[henryp]

re: rythym

The idea of "Being good" a control:
Turns out, there are more practical applications of not behaving 'good' than skullfucking babies and killing old ladies.  The easiest place to look is the rich and powerful.  People who get ahead in business or politics typically aren't doing so on the backs of their fair, truthful, and kind behaviors.

Using the simpler Nazi behavior.  If you don't kill the Jews, you die.  Dying is about as 'not one's my best interests' as you can get. We've been taught to 'be good' and die in that situation, I believe. I think that's a pretty clear example of acting outside my own best interests.

As for who's behind such ideas, I don't know.  We know religions have been used 'being good' to control people for thousands of years.  There are definitely people in power trying to convert our 'good' behavior into some benefit for themselves.  "Oh look, a pink cancer ribbon on the packaging!  I'll buy that one!"  Conversely, a lot of good behavior is necessary to protect our own interests.  Of course, what those are vary from person to person.  

This might be something for a new thread.  Generic morality being used as a contorl is definitely more complex than how Nationality is blatantly used to manipulate people.

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Cannibalism:

Cannibalism is an interesting one.  We've got a lot of behaviors that we're biologically/socially programmed to avoid.  But as self-aware people, I think we can recognize when something is just 'wiring' rather than a reasonable rule.  At least, I think some people can recognize that.  In my mind, if I'm starving to death, meat is meat.   I think I've read Cannibalism exposes you to some weird diseases, so obviously you want to avoid it for that.  But living vs. dying, I'd take the risk.  Of course, we live in a culture where you can't eat a dog, but you can kill a pig and share the pig meat with a dog, and that's okay.  So it doesn't surprise me that such an oddly indoctrinated people will have a tough time shaking off some of their food beliefs.
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On the idea that axe murderering being under the surface:
It looks like a perceived threat to your children's welfare is enough for you to break out the axe.  So the question becomes what qualifies as a perceived threat.  Is my taking up the last spot in the last lifeboat while your kid is still on the sinking ship a threat to your child's welfare?  It's all shades of grey once we establish you'll kill me to keep your kid safe.  

Hopefully, your trigger point is far off.  But I just don't believe that it's as far off as people would like to believe.  Sports parents, road rage, relationships going bad, Florida, and on and on.  We have such a violent history, and for so many, violence is just waiting to be let out.  While I hope we never find out, I'm very curious how such a soft entitled society as ours would handle a big setback.  The global economy, climate change, nuclear war, the electric grid, etc... Seems like it's just a matter of time.

[FatAndFaithless]

Why be good? Because I prefer to have good done to me and the ones I care about. Easy.

[henryp]

Why be good?  Because I prefer to have good done to me and the ones I care about.  Easy.

What if the two aren't connected?  Where your behavior towards others doesn't impact others behavior towards you?

The other situation being what happens when others aren't being good to you and the one's you care about?  Do you still feel the obligation to be good?

[FatAndFaithless]

Why be good?  Because I prefer to have good done to me and the ones I care about.  Easy.

What if the two aren't connected?  Where your behavior towards others doesn't impact others behavior towards you?

The other situation being what happens when others aren't being good to you and the one's you care about?  Do you still feel the obligation to be good?

Seeing that we live in a society full of other mostly similar social animals, my and their behavior does impact each other.

And to your second question, of course I do. When one person steals from me I don't suddenly feel justified in stealing something myself.

[dyresand]

Why be good?  Because I prefer to have good done to me and the ones I care about.  Easy.

What if the two aren't connected?  Where your behavior towards others doesn't impact others behavior towards you?

The other situation being what happens when others aren't being good to you and the one's you care about?  Do you still feel the obligation to be good?

Rule of thumb about life. 

You can be hated deeply and strongly by everyone like the WBC

Or 

You can suck it up and not be a dick and be kind. Being kind is in general a good thing
Society needs to strive with good people. It's like um.. you wouldn't go to a doctor who will
treat you like a piece of shit. Or you wouldn't want a uncaring asshole to do surgery on you.

[henryp]

What if the two aren't connected?  Where your behavior towards others doesn't impact others behavior towards you?

The other situation being what happens when others aren't being good to you and the one's you care about?  Do you still feel the obligation to be good?

Rule of thumb about life. 

You can be hated deeply and strongly by everyone like the WBC

Or 

You can suck it up and not be a dick and be kind. Being kind is in general a good thing
Society needs to strive with good people. It's like um.. you wouldn't go to a doctor who will
treat you like a piece of shit. Or you wouldn't want a uncaring asshole to do surgery on you.

The doctor is a good example.  If the uncaring asshole doctor is the best at doing the surgery in the world, people absolutely would go to him.  And he would know people would go to him, regardless of him being an uncaring asshole.  

I think part of the pollyanna'ish outlook on here, is the idea that we're all on equal footing.  Or that good people have access to love and happiness that isn't available to the rich people who trample on them.  It's just not the way it is.  Rich powerful people very much can live long happy lives of luxury with people they care about, all while trampling on the little folks.  It's a hard truth that people seem to not want to believe.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think that the "pollyanna-ish bit" (lol, slap hands baby..that was pretty good) is that you're trying to describe some binary human being, that "being good" as a human being means that the person isn't a dick.....or that whatever standards you have for what makes a person a dick are binding.  Guess what, rich people who trample on others?  -you're one of em.  You're still a good guy..I'm certain, and they probably are'nt cartoon villains themselves........I used to shoot people a living, I'm a good guy too.

Lets not set some impossible and ridiculous standard and then bitch about the failures of the human race to meet said impossible and ridiculous standard..eh?

(I won't eat people because they aren't worth as much as food as they are as co-foragers. It's added survival risk...to kill the guy standing next to you when you both clearly need help. I wouldn't hit you over the head with a brick in the lifeboat scenario..I;d just make you swim..and I'd be swimming too, if there were other kids to put aboard. This shit doesn't take a hero..it takes the acknowledgment of the shame you would feel if you took another course. That's why we manage to save the kids so often...because it isn't actually that hard for us to do so- despite our mythologizing. I'm not trying to sell you a line about people being pure beings of light or some-such. You underestimate yourself, thinking that some higher bar is required when it isn't...you and I would get out of the woods - together. No one is going to be eating anyone, you and I both are eaters...not the eaten, roger, lol?)

[FatAndFaithless]

Lets not set some impossible and ridiculous standard and then bitch about the failures of the human race to meet said impossible and ridiculous standard..eh?

Kinda sounds like the whole original sin thing~