IF in the end, you find that God does exist ....

[Whateverist]

[robvalue]

I understand the idea that grovelling is a means to an end when faced with actual God. That is pragmatic, just as I would grovel to someone with a gun in my face if I thought it would help me get out of the situation alive.

But the analogy falls down because you're dealing with something totally unknown to us. It's rather patronising to a being of such immense power that its only interest is whether or not you're prepared to throw yourself on the ground in front of it. What exactly would a "God" get out of this? If it ordered you to do so, I would assume one of the following is most likely true:

1- This is a test to see if I'm a mindless subservient

2- This God is messed up

I would think that in case 1, the God would be more impressed by refusing. In case 2, there's really no guarantee as to what it will do no matter what action you take.

If the God doesn't actually tell me to throw myself on the floor, why would I do it?

I think the idea that grovel=reward is a demonstration of how simply we have come to view "God" as just another bloke who happens to have more power than us.

[Longhorn]

Quick question. How do you know that "God" is a he?

And if he's a he and he's omnipresent, does that mean his richard is everywhere too? Cos, yuuck

[renatoab]

Haha
Will I have the option to accept or not?
Someone who can do any terrible thing to anyone? I don't believe such a thing exist, but if it appeared in front of me, I don't have the choice. Should I fight against someone with superpower? Haha

[Tonus]

If God's a giant douchebag, but heaven is super awesome, and hell sucks balls (in a bad way), I'd definitely bend a knee to get the nice eternity.  Eternity seems like a long time to be standing on one's principles.

This is a problem with the concept of Yahweh. He's ultra-powerful and utterly without anyone who can stop him from doing what he wants, and his desires and attitude (indeed, his whole personality) can change drastically. Perhaps with the exception of his willingness to fuck you up eight ways to Sunday, anyway.

Which means that if you make it to heaven, you might be quite surprised to hear the announcement that "the next million-years will be considered the 'opposites era' and everyone in heaven will switch places with everyone in hell." I wonder how many spirit beings will find that they remember the feeling of having their sphincters spasmodically clench quite vividly at that point? And remember, when you get back from your million-year torture session, you'd better run up to Yahweh and tell him how awesome and just and good and righteous he was for violating your soul like that, because his every action is good by definition. And you probably wouldn't want to upset him at that point in time. You'd just go back to your happy cloud, knowing that it might not be that long before he decides that the next 'opposites era' will last a billion years.

[robvalue]

Haha yes, you made my point better than I did. You can't trust someone as mental as Yahweh.

Of course, I'd expect "God" to be absolutely nothing like Yahweh, and the idea that he'd want me to grovel is kind of ridiculous. Do we expect robots with AI we made to grovel to us? And if they don't we smash them? That's a pretty messed up individual who does that, and I'd expect better from a super intelligence, unless it's insane.

[Tonus]

I'm looking for any of you to put up arguments of factual truth, in contrast to what I believe is truth.

Factual truth won't take us into the spiritual or metaphysical domains that most theists consider to be the basis of the evidence for their beliefs. The most it can do is teach us about the physical world and how it works, which might allow us to recognize the supernatural if we ever saw it (for example, walking on the surface of a lake as if it were dry ground would be supernatural based on our understanding of how water behaves). You have the same factual truths about the world that we do, but you interpret it through a lens that assumes the supernatural can happen because you read it in a book and perhaps through the never-confirmed experiences that others (or even you) have claimed to witness. I can't convince you that what you believe is false, because your filter makes exceptions for it. You can't convince me that what you believe is true, because I discarded that filter years ago.

Perhaps the most useful path is to study the filter.

[Whateverist]

Haha
Will I have the option to accept or not?
Someone who can do any terrible thing to anyone? I don't believe such a thing exist, but if it appeared in front of me, I don't have the choice. Should I fight against someone with superpower? Haha

I must just have a naturally low level of paranoia.  But I just don't think the universe, god or even the FBI gives a flying fuck about me.

[robvalue]

[ignoramus]

Haha
Will I have the option to accept or not?
Someone who can do any terrible thing to anyone? I don't believe such a thing exist, but if it appeared in front of me, I don't have the choice. Should I fight against someone with superpower? Haha

I must just have a naturally low level of paranoia.  But I just don't think the universe, god or even the FBI gives a flying fuck about me.

Unless you're not paying the correct taxes, and then the IRS will be all over you like cheap hookers.