Stump the Christian?

[robvalue]

No, that's definitely Randy, I took it

[Catholic_Lady]

No, that's definitely Randy, I took it

Ohhhh ok.

[ignoramus]

No, that's definitely Randy, I took it

Ohhhh ok.

In that case, CL, could you do us all a favour and bitchslap Randy for us... You know, to knock a little sense into her!

[Catholic_Lady]

Ohhhh ok.

In that case, CL, could you do us all a favour and bitchslap Randy for us... You know, to knock a little sense into her!

I like Randy!

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh?......give it time.

[Randy Carson]

Then don't.

But the proof you will receive, Jenny, when it comes will be exactly what you, personally, need.

Should it ever come, you'll be the first to know.

But please tell me what proof you have received.   It's a real question.  I don't mean to belittle.  PM if you think it will get you in trouble here.  I will of course tell you why I don't think it's enough, unless of course it's just what I needed.  I will also tell you why I wouldn't think it enough, if that is the case.  You see, what I need is evidence.

Jenny-

I have heard God speak to me in prayer on several occasions...not often, and not audibly, but by an knowing that I had just heard something that was NOT the normal soundtrack that we all have in our minds. And what I heard either came to pass or confirmed something that was important for me to know. I have also had numerous "coincidences" that if I were to share the full details, might appear to be anything but coincidences, but then again, it might not...given your skepticism. I'm referring to major life-changing type stuff...not praying to St. Anthony for a parking space. But that is not evidence that I can show, so I will not speak of it further.

Given what you do accept about Jesus, Paul and the foundation of the Early Church, where does the disconnect lie? In your inability to accept supernatural events as historical facts recorded in the NT?

Or would you be more willing to accept philosophical arguments for the existence of God as "evidence"?

[Randy Carson]

If you're really seeking the true God, he will eventually see that you're serious. But only if you are.

Well, yours couldn't see it when I was. I wonder why?

I cannot say. Nor do I know how old you are and what effort you really made. I take you at your word.

But if it takes a lifetime, pursuing God is the most important thing you will ever do.

[Randy Carson]

Gee, there are dozens of other subforums you can hang out in. If you want to be left alone, you don't HAVE to post in the Christianity forum, do you?

Hopefully you do notice, this is an atheist board regardless of the sub forum. If you barge in, all bible quotes blazing, you kind of expect a response, don't you?

I was HOPING for a response.

What I wrote above was given in response to the person who said:

"Hold all the abhorrent beliefs you please, but leave the rest of us alone. Live and let live, all that."

[Randy Carson]

hmmm.... Randy seems to have changed his avatar to a pretty lady...


Not looking at the camera, and a taint of high quality lenses and lighting makes me think it's a stock photo!


Here, Randy, this is how it's done:


Looking at the camera: clear sign that it was a photo taken by some amateur who told the subject to look at the birdie and say cheese
Crappy lighting: Amateurish photographer.... possibly a parent.
Uneven white balance: clear sign of inexpensive camera

Darn. Maybe I should have been a blonde.

[Jenny A]

Jenny-

I have heard God speak to me in prayer on several occasions...not often, and not audibly, but by an knowing that I had just heard something that was NOT the normal soundtrack that we all have in our minds. And what I heard either came to pass or confirmed something that was important for me to know. I have also had numerous "coincidences" that if I were to share the full details, might appear to be anything but coincidences, but then again, it might not...given your skepticism. I'm referring to major life-changing type stuff...not praying to St. Anthony for a parking space. But that is not evidence that I can show, so I will not speak of it further.

Given what you do accept about Jesus, Paul and the foundation of the Early Church, where does the disconnect lie? In your inability to accept supernatural events as historical facts recorded in the NT?

Or would you be more willing to accept philosophical arguments for the existence of God as "evidence"?

I'm certainly willing to believe that you feel you have heard god speak to you in prayer.  It's not a matter of thinking you are either a liar or crazy.  But many people have reported similar feelings about Vishnu, Allah, god reporting the end of the world on a date now passed, their dead grandmother, and on and on.  So no, I don't accept such experiences as proof of a Zeus, Allah, god, or communications from the dead.  If you all came back and reported non contradictory messages, and the predictions all panned out, I might think you were on to something, but they don't.

I suspect Paul believed just as you do.  And I give him exactly as much credence as his contemporaries who believed in the prophecies at Delphi, which is to say none.

Coincidences are coincidences.  When you actually run the odds, it's surprising how many coincidences are normal.  For example in a group of just 23 people chances are 50% that two of them will share the same birth date though if you ask people their birth dates in a group of 30 people and two share a birthday people will be amazed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem  In groups over 70 people it's a great parlor trick as the chances are about 99.9%.    You see without running the math people are remarkably bad at determining probability.  It's a fact professional gamblers depend upon.  

The disconnect is in belief in the supernatural.  And that is because it never really pans out which is not surprising since in defies what we ordinarily observe and the observers of the supernatural observe remarkably dissimilar things.   I think I made that quite clear.  Reports of the supernatural invariably turn out to have natural explanations whenever tests can actually be run.  In India, shaman are still claiming water into wine etc. and people still believe, yet the natural fraud is easily shown.  Watch a good magician and you will be fooled.  The magician is honest and tells you it's a trick.  But that's no reason to suppose that all tricksters will admit the trick.

And as I tire of reminding you the NT does contradict what we know about ancient history repeatedly.  We don't need to get to the miracles to know that.  If it's wrong about when Herod was king, why should we trust it about walking on water?

Philosophical arguments are as good as their premises.  So far all the philosophical arguments I've heard for god have flawed premises.