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Miracle
RE: Miracle
(August 7, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Harris Wrote: Let me introduce a new miracle of Quran.

The word “Land” mentioned in Quran 13 times that is 13/45 = 28.888
The word “Sea” mentioned in Quran 32 times that is 32/45 = 71.111

The approximate ratio of land to sea is 13:32 or 28.888:71.111

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8o.html

The author, who hypothetically was living in desert in seventh century, knew the exact quantity of water on earth and that knowledge made him capable of writing these figures in coded form.

Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

So. Let me get this straight. The prophet knew that the ratio of water to land on earth was 71:29, which is about 32:13, and he decided to convey this information by including the word "water" 32 times and "land" 13 times?

Why not, you know... Come out and say it?

I wonder how many times the Quran says "woman" compared to "man."

Or how about "sun" vs "moon"? If they're not exactly equal, by your logic I'm going to take that to mean the prophet thought there were more or fewer suns than moons.

(Or are we just calling happy coincidences "miracles" and ignoring the hundreds of other times it doesn't work out like that?)
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D

Don't worry, my friend.  If this be the end, then so shall it be.
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RE: Miracle
(August 7, 2015 at 11:13 pm)Harris Wrote:
(August 5, 2015 at 6:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: You are the one who claims that minor philosophical points represent miracles, not I. YOUR standard of miracle is "something that I don't believe anyone at that time could have known."

“Minor Philosophical Points!” Had I given any philosophical point? There are no philosophical points in my post all nine points are precisely scientific.
Okay, I will restate. Your standard of miracle is "Something that, despite being easily observed, I consider unknowable by the writers of the Quran."

Quote:
(August 5, 2015 at 6:23 am)bennyboy Wrote: Science without nature is impossible. Science without the fairy tales of dark-ages sand people is perfectly possible.

The points that I have raised in my post are not from the wonderland fairy tales. They are precise scientific facts.
I didn't say the halocline etc. were fairy tales. I'm saying the Quran is a book about a fairytale being, meant to scare uneducated desert people into banding together. Science is perfectly doable without any word in the Quran.


Quote:Let me introduce a new miracle of Quran.

The word “Land” mentioned in Quran 13 times that is 13/45 = 28.888
The word “Sea” mentioned in Quran 32 times that is 32/45 = 71.111

The approximate ratio of land to sea is 13:32 or 28.888:71.111

http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/8o.html

The author, who hypothetically was living in desert in seventh century, knew the exact quantity of water on earth and that knowledge made him capable of writing these figures in coded form.
Numbers are fun! Let's run with your revalation of a miraculous ratio and see if we can find those numbers anywhere else.

YES. Aluminum has an atomic weight of 13. Germanium has a weight of 32. And. . . holy shit! The phase diagrum of Al-Ge looks a little like a promontory of land with a big wave rolling into it. Mark 13:32 says "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Obviously, the Muslims knew more than Mark, because of 13:32 he must be talking about throwing the land into the sea.

Wait, there's more! The great muslim historian, Ibn Khaldun, was also a brilliant mathematician, and he invented what we call the Laffer Curve. . . which also looks vaguely wavelike! And HE WAS BORN IN. . . wait for it. . . 1332.

HOLY SHIT!!! Layers in layers, everything comes up 13:32. The Quran lays it all out, as clear as crystal! We're all gonna die by tsunami!

. . . or it's just a coincidence. Dodgy
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RE: Miracle
Quote:WRONG! Brain cannot produce signals of the sensory organs all by its own. Each sensory organ is crucial to produce signals to brain. Without having proper signals from sensory organs, brain is not capable to originate senses and feelings.
Just to clarify, you say I'm wrong about the brain being the main cause of suffering from pain?
You understand that a body with no brain experiences no suffering at all? 

 If I chop your hand off and stab the hand, the suffering you feel will be from the original chop, you will experience no suffering from the stabbing of the hand and the hand, without a brain attached, will feel no suffering of its own either.

If you have no skin and I hurt your internal organs you will suffer because your brain will tell you what's happening to your internal organs is bad, if you have no internal organs and just skin attached to a brain and I hurt your skin you will suffer because your brain will tell you what is happening is bad. 

You can see the common denominators in these scenarios?  It's the brain and pain receptors.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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RE: Miracle
Quote:The point here is not whether people were aware or not about burning sensation but it is about their perception of burning sensation. They perceived heart as pain receptor, which Quran has corrected by attracting their attentions towards the skin.
Ancient people didn't believe the heart was a pain receptor, they didn't know what pain receptors were.  They believed the heart was the central organ responsible for the sensation of pain, now we know the brain is the central organ which picks up signals from pain receptors in skin and other organs.
Quote: At this time, neither Aristotle nor Hippocrates believed that the brain had any role to play in pain processing but rather implicated the heart as the central organ for the sensation of pain.
Here is a little piece from Wikipedia.  What it's saying is they believed the heart is the organ responsible for pain processing, whereas we now know it's the brain, which is what I was saying in my previous reply to you.
The quran doesn't mention pain receptors, it doesn't mention the heart not being the central organ responsible for pain, it doesn't mention the brain being responsible, the one and ONLY thing the quran mentions as being responsible for pain is the repeated burning of skin.
As I have repeated many times now the only information given by the quran is that burning skin hurts, it's not a scientific discovery.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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RE: Miracle
(August 7, 2015 at 11:53 pm)JuliaL Wrote: Hey Harris!
Rather than warping some sacred text to try to take credit for the hard work scientists have done in the past, why don't you pray and study the Koran and come back with something specific, predictive and currently unknown.

Like for instance: bring me an algorithm which can factor the product of two large prime numbers in a reasonable (for instance a couple days of computer) time.

We'll get really famous and rich.

Predictions aren't very impressive when they're made after the event.

Quran not only holds the information of the present world but it contains information of the past and future worlds as well. However, we do not have access to all that information because whether information is in a coded form or we are not yet matured to understand it. For example, take this verse:

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

Commentators of Quran (in the past) were confused and had no idea about the meaning of this verse because there is no literal sign in the night sky, which may confirm that every celestial object is moving away from every other object. Thanks to Mr Hubble, whose hard work divulged the meaning of this verse. Likewise, Quran holds information for the future generations to manifest its divine nature upon them.

Compared to human endeavours, Quran has no plans to make human life comfortable by means of physical and material objects. Hence, Quran is not intended to make any scientific prediction. That is the reason why all scientific facts in Quran become conceivable only after their discoveries.

The objective of Quran is to guide people to moral behaviour by discouraging arrogance and meanness.

Nevertheless, why should anyone believe in Quran? People, in general, love to believe in things, which they can perceive directly through their physical senses or if they believe in some unobservable phenomenon then they have strong logical foundation for that, for example belief in the existence of black holes based upon strong scientific evidences.

Therefore, being aware of this fact God (creator of everything) has revealed miracles to the sceptics throughout the human existence to obviate their doubts in the existence of God. Quran is one such miracle that would last until the end of the world.

Many people ask why not God reveals Himself and why He is sending indirect signs to convey the idea of His existence.

God bestowed intellect and free will to the people so they can make decisions based on their free choices. However, if God divulges Himself in public then that would kill the purpose of free will and free choice. That is the reason God is not exposing Himself to the people.

In my opinion, sceptics are those people who contradict obvious logical facts only to seek personal benefit and advantage. For example,

To show my superiority over eminent scientists, I can easily be a sceptic. I can say:

“I do not believe in black holes because out of millions or perhaps out of billions, as you claim there are, no one has ever seen a Black Hole. Show me only one if you are truthful.”

No matter how strong evidences scientists have but none in the world is capable to show one real Black Hole to me. This way even by knowing the truth, I can beat their claims about Black Holes, which would be certainly an ignoble act of mine.

“When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 13-

(August 8, 2015 at 12:37 am)paulpablo Wrote: Harris wrote:
Therefore, I found the historical record without much effort and proved your idea to be wrong.

Paulpablo wrote:
Oh ok cool.......... where is it?

You are in love of making echoes.

“And when Abner was returned to Hebron, Joab took him aside into the midst of the gate to speak with him quietly, and SMOTE HIM THERE IN THE GROIN, THAT HE DIED, for the blood of Asahel his brother.”
Verse 28
2 Samuel − Chapter 3
Holy Neviim − Book 4

“But Amasa took no heed to the sword that was in Joab's hand; so he smote him therewith in the groin, and shed out his bowels to the ground, and struck him not again; and he died. And Joab and Abishai his brother pursued after Sheba the son of Bichri.”
Verse 11
2 Samuel − Chapter 20
Holy Neviim − Book 04

Sculptures of Ancient Greek Sport - Pankration (332–331 BC) give real evidences of hitting in groin

http://thatsallhistory.tumblr.com/post/4...one-of-the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

(August 8, 2015 at 1:45 am)TRJF Wrote: Hahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha

So. Let me get this straight. The prophet knew that the ratio of water to land on earth was 71:29, which is about 32:13, and he decided to convey this information by including the word "water" 32 times and "land" 13 times?

Why not, you know... Come out and say it?

I wonder how many times the Quran says "woman" compared to "man."

In Quran:

The word "man" is mentioned 23 times
The Word "woman" is mentioned 23 times

The total number of human chromosomes is 46 in 23 pairs

23 from the FATHER (man)
23 from the MOTHER (woman)

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/basics/h...hromosomes

What is surprising that any author habitually does not bother to make sure of which word he is using how many times while expressing some idea. If some author did put some words on purpose in specific number of time, then he makes sure to make it publically known.

Perhaps the author has some secret plan behind repeating certain words in specific numbers, which people come to know after passing of some time and that is the case with Quran.

(August 8, 2015 at 1:45 am)TRJF Wrote: Or how about "sun" vs "moon"? If they're not exactly equal, by your logic I'm going to take that to mean the prophet thought there were more or fewer suns than moons.

The word "Moon" appears 27 times in Quran
Moon takes a complete round around the Earth in 27 days

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon

(August 8, 2015 at 1:45 am)TRJF Wrote: (Or are we just calling happy coincidences "miracles" and ignoring the hundreds of other times it doesn't work out like that?)

What do you think now?

(August 8, 2015 at 5:20 am)bennyboy Wrote: Numbers are fun! Let's run with your revalation of a miraculous ratio and see if we can find those numbers anywhere else.

YES. Aluminum has an atomic weight of 13. Germanium has a weight of 32. And. . . holy shit! The phase diagrum of Al-Ge looks a little like a promontory of land with a big wave rolling into it. Mark 13:32 says "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Obviously, the Muslims knew more than Mark, because of 13:32 he must be talking about throwing the land into the sea.

Wait, there's more! The great muslim historian, Ibn Khaldun, was also a brilliant mathematician, and he invented what we call the Laffer Curve. . . which also looks vaguely wavelike! And HE WAS BORN IN. . . wait for it. . . 1332.

HOLY SHIT!!! Layers in layers, everything comes up 13:32. The Quran lays it all out, as clear as crystal! We're all gonna die by tsunami!

Yes, 1332 can be found in many places. Let me add one for you. Every one of us has seen the hour 13:32 at each day of our past life and each one of us will see the hour 13:32 every day of our remaining life. However, that 13:32 or 1332 in all those cases cannot be taken as RATIO between certain things.

The thing what you cannot find elsewhere other than in Quran is the exact ratio of land to sea 13:32.

Bring me any scripture or book where the word “Land” is mentioned 13 times and the word “Sea” is mentioned 32 times.

(August 8, 2015 at 5:20 am)bennyboy Wrote: . . . or it's just a coincidence.

Point one:
The word “Day” is mentioned 365 time in Quran

Point two:
The word “Month” in plural form is mentioned 30 times

Point three:
The word “Month” in singular form is mentioned 12 times

Point four:
Chapter An-Nahl, meaning “Bee,” is the 16th Surah (chapter)
The male bee has 16 chromosomes

Point five:

“And We raised him to a lofty station.”
Maryam (19)
-Verse 57-

If I put chapter number 19 and then the verse number 57, I will get 1957.

By keeping in view the contextual meaning of the verse 19:57, the amazing point here is that first ever satellite, "Sputnik 1," was launched in 1957.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1

Do you think all these points are coincidences? Quran is full of such (so-called) coincidences. If you are not satisfied with these then let me know and I will give you more.

Prophet Mohammad received Quran in small pieces in variety of circumstances during a span of 23 years. When people compiled all those pieces in form of a book only then they learned, which word is used how many times. There was no human in seventh century and there is no human in today’s world who can arrange and compile a book the way Quran is without upsetting the consistency and meaning of the text yet keeping the specific pattern of word repetitions with a miraculous accuracy.

“And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura (chapter) like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.”
Al Baqarah (2)
-Verse 23-

“Is it that their faculties of understanding urge them to this, or are they but a people transgressing beyond bounds?
Or do they say, "He fabricated the (Message)?” Nay, they have no faith!
Let them then produce a recital like unto it, - If (it be) they speak the truth!”
Ath-Thuur (52)
Verses 32 – 34 -

(August 8, 2015 at 4:43 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Just to clarify, you say I'm wrong about the brain being the main cause of suffering from pain?
You understand that a body with no brain experiences no suffering at all?

If I chop your hand off and stab the hand, the suffering you feel will be from the original chop, you will experience no suffering from the stabbing of the hand and the hand, without a brain attached, will feel no suffering of its own either.

If you have no skin and I hurt your internal organs you will suffer because your brain will tell you what's happening to your internal organs is bad, if you have no internal organs and just skin attached to a brain and I hurt your skin you will suffer because your brain will tell you what is happening is bad.

You can see the common denominators in these scenarios?  It's the brain and pain receptors.

Brain needs skin (sensory organ) to produce sensation. Without eyes, brain cannot see and without ears, brain cannot hear. It is a simple concept that is giving you a hard time.

(August 8, 2015 at 5:01 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Ancient people didn't believe the heart was a pain receptor, they didn't know what pain receptors were.  They believed the heart was the central organ responsible for the sensation of pain, now we know the brain is the central organ which picks up signals from pain receptors in skin and other organs.

Does that meaning have changed anything in how people were perceiving heart in the past?

(August 8, 2015 at 5:01 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Quote: At this time, neither Aristotle nor Hippocrates believed that the brain had any role to play in pain processing but rather implicated the heart as the central organ for the sensation of pain.

Here is a little piece from Wikipedia.  What it's saying is they believed the heart is the organ responsible for pain processing, whereas we now know it's the brain, which is what I was saying in my previous reply to you. The quran doesn't mention pain receptors, it doesn't mention the heart not being the central organ responsible for pain, it doesn't mention the brain being responsible, the one and ONLY thing the quran mentions as being responsible for pain is the repeated burning of skin.

As I have repeated many times now the only information given by the quran is that burning skin hurts, it's not a scientific discovery.

Quran has put special emphasis on the skin. Skin is a sensory organ. That is an accurate and more than sufficient information for today’s scientist as he does not need further information like skin has pain receptors, which produces pain signals to brain when it burns.
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RE: Miracle
The only true miracle is that Harris will not allow his mind to work properly.
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RE: Miracle
To me miracles are just coincidences.
"Don't hate the player, hate the game son."

"POCKET SAND!"
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RE: Miracle
Harris, numerology is a big fail. At best, it shows that the writers of the Quran knew some things, and that they liked to add hidden puzzles to the Quran for people to figure out and be wowed by. At worst, it means you and other "students" of the Quran have way to much free time, and are whipping yourself into a schizophrenic frenzy looking for ricidulous and pointless "meanings" in your religious book.

What it doesn't do is show that something supernatural has occurred, or that an all-powerful Skydaddy had anything to do with its creation.
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RE: Miracle
Calling something a miracle, supernatural, magic, anything like this, is always an argument from ignorance.

It's saying, "I don't find any of the standard explanations for this event, if there are any, satisfactory. I also believe that no explanations will ever be forthcoming at any point in the future that I will find satisfactory. So since I've ruled all those out somehow, that leaves magic/miracles."

Or to put it another way, it's setting your belief at "magic" then holding onto it until you are proved wrong. Either way, it's a hopelessly flawed way of going about things. No one ever learns anything or improves understanding this way.
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RE: Miracle
Quote:You are in love of making echoes.

“And when Abner was returned to Hebron, Joab took him aside into the midst of the gate to speak with him quietly, and SMOTE HIM THERE IN THE GROIN, THAT HE DIED, for the blood of Asahel his brother.”
Verse 28
2 Samuel − Chapter 3
Holy Neviim − Book 4

“But Amasa took no heed to the sword that was in Joab's hand; so he smote him therewith in the groin, and shed out his bowels to the ground, and struck him not again; and he died. And Joab and Abishai his brother pursued after Sheba the son of Bichri.”
Verse 11
2 Samuel − Chapter 20
Holy Neviim − Book 04

Sculptures of Ancient Greek Sport - Pankration (332–331 BC) give real evidences of hitting in groin

[url=http://thatsallhistory.tumblr.com/post/40846325182/ancient-greek-sport-pankration-one-of-the][/url]

Using your logic I can prove ancient people didn't know something if they didn't mention it, you haven't found a single written statement from ancient times which say being hit in the groin by wood causes pain.


Are you ready for the fire? We are firemen. WE ARE FIREMEN! The heat doesn’t bother us. We live in the heat. We train in the heat. It tells us that we’re ready, we’re at home, we’re where we’re supposed to be. Flames don’t intimidate us. What do we do? We control the flame. We control them. We move the flames where we want to. And then we extinguish them.

Impersonation is treason.





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