Miracle

[Chas]

Atheists take miracles as merely a fictional creation unconsciously designed to satisfy the needs of the religious mind for some external salvation. They see miracles as violations of natural laws, an event that nature could not have produced on its own - an event that will always be incompatible with the relevant natural laws.

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In his book, "KRAFT UND STOFF," Ludwig Büchner argues that:

“Science, however, has long banished every thought of supernatural interference in demonstrating the mechanical and accidental processes in these phenomena.”

Page 87
Force and Matter
By Ludwig Büchner
Edited by J. Frederick Collingwood

According to Ludwig Büchner, force is inseparably bound to a material substrate and thus cannot be regarded as a kind of supernatural and transcendent entity. He argues that all changes and events follow mechanical laws. These laws are not imposed on nature from outside, but are built into matter itself. Matter is eternal and has no bounds, neither on a microscopic nor on a macroscopic scale. It is ruled by rigid and universal laws, which do not allow for miracles. His emphases is on the concept that soul or mind, as well as organic life, are the product of specially combined materials that are endowed with special mechanical forces. There is neither an immaterial spiritual substance, nor a vital force, nor an externally set purpose of nature. He, like many others, concluded that a miracle could not be believed because the testimonial evidence in its favour necessarily contradicted uniform human experience of the laws of nature.

In general, the orderly, elegant and harmonious processes of nature indeed curtail any apparent probability of miracle.

Astronomers revealed the vastness of the universe, physicists discovered that the same laws applied beyond the moon as applied below it and that the universe is a vast machine and biologists found a minuscule universe of a vastness comparable to the macrocosm.

The predictability of all events in nature is possible only because of cyclical patterns of growth, maturity and decay.

We as rational beings are in a position to state with absolute certainty what nature could or could not produce on its own. All acknowledge that the scientific enterprise is continually discovering new and often startling and unexpected information about the causal relationships that obtain in our universe.

I will now quote few well-established facts of science, which are so evident that if a person denies then it will be impossible to find a more obviously true principle on which to build a precise logical proof.

1. Big Bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

2. Metric expansion of space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

3. Orbits
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit

4. The Solar apex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_apex

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron

6. The deep ocean currents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contourite

7. Halocline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halocline
55:19-20

8. Human embryo and its stages of development
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo#Human

9. Skin a Pain Receptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somatosensory_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutaneous_receptor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutaneous_receptor#Types

I have deliberately selected these nine purely scientific concepts to demonstrate that in today’s hyperactive scientific world miracle is not only possible but also actual and existent.

For establishing my argument, I will first quote some verses from Quran, which correspond to the nine scientific facts that I have cited above.

1. Big Bang

“Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? … ”
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 30-

2. Metric expansion of space

“With power did We construct the heaven. Verily, We are Able to extend the vastness of space thereof.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

Adz-Dzaariya (51)
-Verse 47-

3. Orbits

“And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan

“It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.”
Translation by Yusuf Ali
Al Anbiyaa' (21)
-Verse 33-

4. The Solar apex

“And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.”
Yaa Siin (36)
-Verse 38-

5. Iron carried by meteorites to earth

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind…” (Quran 57:25)

6. The deep ocean currents

“Or (the state of a disbeliever) is like the darkness in a vast deep sea, overwhelmed with a great wave topped by a great wave, topped by dark clouds, darkness, one above another, if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! And he for whom Allah has not appointed light, for him there is no light.”
Translation by Dr. M. Taqiud-Din & Dr. M. Khan:

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
Translation by Yusuf Ali:

An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

7. Halocline

“It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.”
Al Furqaan (25)
-Verse 53-

8. Human embryo and its stages of development

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

“Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”

Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verses 12, 13, 14-

9. Skin a Pain Receptor

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-


Now think of a Bedouin who lived in 7th century AD had developed all these true scientific facts. All these facts were inconceivable for anyone who was living in the 7th century Arabia. In that era no one could have known such details due to lack of knowhow and proper tools, especially the facts like how universe was born and that it is expanding or the staging and classification of human embryo. Scientists have just recently found out these facts by means of complicated and advanced scientific methods.

There are too many scientific accuracies in Quran, which cannot be taken as a mere chance. Quran is a living miracle as it revealed true scientific fact in a non-scientific era. It not only limited to scientific facts but also covers all other disciplines of human life. However, basic purpose of Quran is to give warning and good tidings and not, the science tutorials.

The most compelling reason for the uniformity of nature and successful progress in science is that nature was the result of design by an intelligent being. God is not only the creator of the universe in the sense of being the first cause, but he is also the agent who is the cause of its continuous existence. The existence of the world at every moment depends upon God’s will. The One who designed the architecture and all relevant laws has also the power to suspend those laws or intervene on purpose.

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“We will show them Our Signs in the universe, and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not sufficient in regard to your Lord that He is a Witness over all things?”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 53-

You twist and stretch those verses to mean what you want them to mean; your confirmation bias and presupposition are obvious to all but yourself.

[Cyberman]

This entire thread is what happens when Harris, rikky and GC smoke some Chopra and have a drunken threesome without any regard to contraception.

[ignoramus]

Who's complaining. These types of threads make me feel a whole lot better about myself!
It's free therapy!   Keep 'em coming.

[robvalue]

I would honestly like to borrow a religious theist's eyes for an hour, to see the world how they see it. The differences they describe to me make me feel like they must be seeing something completely different. Now I don't think they actually are seeing anything different at all, and are just interpreting things in ways which reaffirm their beliefs. But I'd love to see what they think they are seeing... I can only guess what kind of world it looks like. Maybe they could borrow my eyes as well for the hour.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I want to say right now OP that I hope you feel bad for wasting everyone's time with this pointless thread.

[robvalue]

I would have thought he'd been on this forum long enough to know that this kind of appeal to partial accuracy isn't going to convince anyone.

[Harris]

No. No, it really isn't. You're just saying it's so amazing, therefor god. It's an argument from incredulity.

Quran is a miracle and there is no doubt about it. Let me expose one more miracle of Quran to which there is no scientific and no philosophical explanation.

According to a conservative non-official study, there are about thirty million Hafiz around the world. Hafiz/Hafiza is a person who memorise complete Quran word-by-word in its original Arabic language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hafiz_(Quran)

About 75% of Hafiz are those who do not understand Arabic yet they memorise whole Quran in original Arabic language.

I ask you to give your best try to find at least:

• One hundred people in the world who have memorised in their native language a complete book/scripture that is equivalent in magnitude of Quran.
• Ten people around the world who have memorised a complete book/scripture in language that they do not understand which is equivalent in magnitude of Quran.

I am talking about 22.5 million people (approximately) who do not understand Arabic but they have memorised Quran word-by-word in its original Arabic language.

Which science, philosophy, and psychology can explicate this living miracle?

“And We have indeed made the Quran easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?”
Al-Qamar (54)
-Verse 17-

lolwut? I can't provide any base or foundation to ANY facts mentioned in the Quran.

There is no coherent and foundational reason that can elucidate why scientific facts appeared in Quran when human knowledge to understand these facts was premature.

Look, you are saying that finding some science in the Quran is a miracle. If it IS a miracle, it's not science, because that's not what science means.

Current scientific facts are not miracles but there presence in 7th century Quran is indeed a miracle.

Nuclear bombs, computers, telephones, cars. These are the products of science. If science is God-given, then why didn't Muhammad have a personal jet? Why wasn't he broadcasting his sermons to everyone's hand phones? Why didn't he just shoot his enemies, instead of beheading them with swords? What, God hadn't figured out that science yet? Here's a hint-- if the best knowledge is always shrouded in mystery and metaphor, it's because it's not really that good after all. We have REAL science now-- science that's in the open, that has a clear meaning, that is based on observations rather than mystery and metaphor.

Presence of scientific facts in Quran is an evidence that this scripture cannot be the work of human hands and that is it. At several occasions, I have pushed this idea but it seems that you have some issues in understanding this simple point.

Well first of all the brain is responsible for the sensation of pain along with the skin, the skin senses the pain, it transmits signals to the spinal cord and then into the brain. look at the list of info given in the quran about skin and burning.

1) Burning hurts.
2) burning destroys skin to the point where it no longer feels pain.

So for the first one, yes I think a person living in the 7th century knew that burning hurt. And for the second one, well people still suffered from 3rd and 4th degree burns in the 7th century, so all they would have to know are the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns. And I'm actually giving the quran the benefit of the doubt that it is talking about the skin feeling no pain once it has suffered 3rd or 4th degree burns.  It actually might just be talking about the skin being roasted then being replaced before the person dies of the 4th degree burns they are suffering.

Indeed, brain processes the stimulus generated by pain receptors in the skin. The point to note here is that without pain receptors brain is unable to process the pain of burning. However, people in the past were thinking that brain alone is the responsible organ to give us burning sensation. People were very unaware of the fact that without skin brain alone cannot process pain of burning. When skin sends the signals to brain only then brain processes those signals. Without skin, brain cannot feel the burning sensation.

“Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 56-

Additionally I love the fact that the verses which are considered to be miracles in the quran are the most horrible brutal non sense. They make god look the same as a man who says if you reject what I say I'll blow your fucking legs off with this shotgun I have underneath this cloth then torture you repeatedly.  But worse. First the Quran says god creates a man.

Quote:Sahih International

O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous –

Then he makes a man disbelieve in Islam by misguiding them.

Quote:Sahih International

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.

(This verse is also consider to be a scientific miracle)

Quote:Sahih International

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Followed by this scientific miracle. You don't even have to do anything bad.  Just disbelieve Muhammad's verses, after being misguided by allah, and the punishment is being thrown into the fire and repeatedly roasted.

It seems you are in love with Jochen Katz. Only he has the courage to submit such thoughtless and narrow-minded arguments.

You have quoted verse 125 out of context. Verse 125 is linked with verse 124:

“When there comes to them a sign from Allah., They say: "We shall not believe until we receive one (exactly) like those received by Allah’s apostles." Allah knoweth best where (and how) to carry out His mission. Soon will the wicked be overtaken by humiliation before Allah, and a severe punishment, for all their plots.”
Al An'am (6)
-Verse 124-

“Those whom Allah (in His plan) willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth TO LEAVE STRAYING,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth Allah (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.”
Al An'am (6)
-Verse 125-

Verse 125 is for the transgressors not for righteous and virtuous people who live their lives by submitting their wills to the Will of God and who obey God’s commandments and endeavour to get close to God.

People who break the divine laws with intent and transgress the limits set by God are the arrogant people and verses 124 and 125 explicitly talks about such people. Out from those transgressors to some God will give the guidance and leave some astray.

“Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.”
Ar Ruum (30)
-Verse 29-

“Those who dispute about the Signs of Allah, without any authority that hath reached them, grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of Allah and of the Believers. Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant and obstinate Transgressors.”
Al Mu'min (40)
-Verse 35-

“Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire? Allah has, knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart (and understanding), and put a cover on his sight. Who, then, will guide him after Allah (has withdrawn Guidance)? Will ye not then receive admonition?”
Al Jaatsiyah (45)
-Verse 23-

God has promised to give righteous people His guidance and reward.

“Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and GUIDE them to Himself by a straight way.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 175-

“And those who strive in Our (cause),- We will certainly GUIDE them to our Paths: For verily Allah is with those who do right.”
Al 'Ankabuut (29)
-Verse 69-

Isn't the only reason we have science is to separate the bullshit from the truth? Religion and science by definition are natural enemies. Science will win in the end, simply because it's still true, whether we acknowledge it or not. Even long after man has died off.

I will not comment on other religions but Science and Islam are by no means enemies as Islam is a natural religion. That is the reason none of those nine scientific facts that I have quoted from Quran are in contradiction with the facts acquired through contemporary methods of science.

You twist and stretch those verses to mean what you want them to mean; your confirmation bias and presupposition are obvious to all but yourself.

If you think I have twisted and stretched all those verses then you are welcome to straighten them IF YOU CAN.

[robvalue]

That all sounds like a lot of fun. I'll leave you to it.

[paulpablo]

Indeed, brain processes the stimulus generated by pain receptors in the skin. The point to note here is that without pain receptors brain is unable to process the pain of burning. However, people in the past were thinking that brain alone is the responsible organ to give us burning sensation. People were very unaware of the fact that without skin brain alone cannot process pain of burning. When skin sends the signals to brain only then brain processes those signals. Without skin, brain cannot feel the burning sensation.

But then surely in the past they also knew that without skin your skin can't burn, therefore even if they believed that the brain was uniquely responsible for pain they would also assume that you can't feel the pain generated from burning skin unless you have skin to burn.
As I previously stated the only information required to write the verse would be to know what the symptoms of 3rd and 4th degree burns are. 
The quran doesn't say the skin has pain receptors, it says god will burn the disbelievers skin until it is roasted then replace it with more skin so they can feel the pain, so YES it is possible for them to know that roasted skin feels no pain, they simply have to know the symptoms of 3rd or 4th degree burns,  and yes it is possible for them to know that roasting your skin initially will hurt.

[bennyboy]

lolwut? I can't provide any base or foundation to ANY facts mentioned in the Quran.

There is no coherent and foundational reason that can elucidate why scientific facts appeared in Quran when human knowledge to understand these facts was premature.

Look, you are saying that finding some science in the Quran is a miracle. If it IS a miracle, it's not science, because that's not what science means.

Current scientific facts are not miracles but there presence in 7th century Quran is indeed a miracle.

Nuclear bombs, computers, telephones, cars. These are the products of science. If science is God-given, then why didn't Muhammad have a personal jet? Why wasn't he broadcasting his sermons to everyone's hand phones? Why didn't he just shoot his enemies, instead of beheading them with swords? What, God hadn't figured out that science yet? Here's a hint-- if the best knowledge is always shrouded in mystery and metaphor, it's because it's not really that good after all. We have REAL science now-- science that's in the open, that has a clear meaning, that is based on observations rather than mystery and metaphor.

Presence of scientific facts in Quran is an evidence that this scripture cannot be the work of human hands and that is it. At several occasions, I have pushed this idea but it seems that you have some issues in understanding this simple point.

I think you still haven't answered my clearest point: IF the writers of the Quran had a miraculous access to scientific truth, then they did a remarkably poor job of compiling that science into a usable system.  Where are the atomic charts, and the QM diagrams?  Where is even a primitive understanding of any of the things the average 10 year-old with a library card can easily pick up with a couple free hours on a Saturday?

IF the Quran is miraculous, then the real miracle is that God chose to reveal so little science, and of such a poor quality, that Christian nations rose to power and came to dominate the world.  Even now, the only fighting chance the muslims have is to use technology-- bombs, guns, cell phones, etc. developed mainly by Europeans and Americans, most Christian, many Jews, and very few of them muslims.

Some miracle.