The right to mis-define oneself

[Longhorn]

If she chooses to go to a public instituion which allows nudity, like a changing room in a gym, then what? Should other women have to put up with the sight of her penis flopping around in the ladies' changing room?

This is an issue, but what's your alternative? Force her to use the men's changing room and be subject to harassment?

What if she decides to start dating, and she takes a man back to her place? Should the man, upon discovering her penis, accept that she is a woman anyway?

Again with the should. What do you mean by it in this context? That's between her and the guy

What if she has a sex change, and doesn't tell prospective male sex partners her history?

http://transwhat.org/debunked/

Omitting mention of their histories can feel like "hiding" to some trans people, but others prefer keeping the information to themselves, for a variety of reasons. People may think of you differently after you disclose. They might scrutinize your behavior, talk about you behind your back, or exclude you socially. And it's not like people have a right to know, anyway; privacy is privacy. For these reasons, and a lot more, it's perfectly reasonable for people to not mention they're trans.

IOW, it's her business.

I think transgender woman works fine, and I'm fine with "she." But Jenner is not female in many of the ways that this word is normally used. That's a statement of physical reality and simple semantic awareness.

Yes, she's not the same as cisgendered women. Point?

[Pyrrho]

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend.  Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn.  Sure, whatever.  I don't give a shit.  But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.  

Except psychologically, Caitlyn/Bruce is a woman

The thing is, psychology is not how the sexes are traditionally defined:

man
noun (plural men /mɛn/)
1An adult human male:a small man with mischievous eyesthe men’s semi-finals

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ctCode=all

woman
noun (plural women /ˈwɪmɪn/)
1An adult human female:a jury of seven women and five men[AS MODIFIER]: a woman doctor

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ctCode=all

male 1
adjective
1Of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring:male children

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ctCode=all

female
adjective
1Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilizedby male gametes:a herd of female deer

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/defini...ctCode=all


Notice, there is nothing whatsoever about the thinking processes that are relevant to the definitions of the terms.  It is only if you redefine the terms that psychology is in any way relevant to who or what is male or female.  Indeed, the entire brain is irrelevant to the standard definitions of the terms.

If you think about it, it would be strange if psychology or the brain were relevant to the definitions of the terms, since that is not how one typically identifies the sexes in ordinary life.  One normally distinguishes between them by their observable physical features.

...
Transgender people are not a good example for this discussion, because they are not mis-identifying themselves, quite to the contrary actually

That depends entirely on the definitions of the terms that one is using.  Using the traditional definitions, they are misidentifying themselves.  That is why many people have said that transgender people are misidentifying themselves.


None of the above is to be understood as suggesting that people should not be allowed to alter themselves as they see fit.  Nor is it to suggest that people so altered should not be allowed to legally change what they are considered to be.  It is to explain why it is that many people say that a transgendered person is really the anatomical sex with which they are born, as that is the traditional way the terms are defined.

[bennyboy]

This is an issue, but what's your alternative? Force her to use the men's changing room and be subject to harassment?

Either way, she's going to be causing a stir. I think she should use the women's changing room, but should avoid showing her penis. In other words, she should not impose on normal women the idea that they must accept her as a woman, penis and all.

Again with the should. What do you mean by it in this context? That's between her and the guy

This is a male organism who has instincts to mate with a female organism-- something which Jenner isn't, actually. The male is very likely to have a negative reaction, causing trama to himself and possibly endangering Jenner. Jenner doesn't get to be surprised, and say "What's wrong? I'm just a girl with a penis. Why are you overreacting?" Her fail to disclose is a lie of omission, and any normal person can see that it is going to cause a problem.

Omitting mention of their histories can feel like "hiding" to some trans people, but others prefer keeping the information to themselves, for a variety of reasons. People may think of you differently after you disclose. They might scrutinize your behavior, talk about you behind your back, or exclude you socially. And it's not like people have a right to know, anyway; privacy is privacy. For these reasons, and a lot more, it's perfectly reasonable for people to not mention they're trans.

IOW, it's her business.

I think this is selfish and immoral. If she is getting involved with a man, there are some obvious expectations-- specifically, that the woman he's having sex with is not a man made by surgery to look like a woman. And that she doesn't have boy parts. I don't think a transwoman's right to privacy trumps this poor guy's experience of having the trans-definition issue imposed on him unexpectedly. Just to show up in the bedroom without first addressing the issue would constitute, in my opinion, a category of rape or sexual abuse, because the psychological effects it could have are so predictable and powerful that a responsible person would take steps to avoid them. Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

[Cato]

I think this is selfish and immoral.  If she is getting involved with a man, there are some obvious expectations-- specifically, that the woman he's having sex with is not a man made by surgery to look like a woman.  And that she doesn't have boy parts.  I don't think a transwoman's right to privacy trumps this poor guy's experience of having the trans-definition issue imposed on him unexpectedly.  To just show up in the bedroom without first addressing the issue would constitute, in my opinion, a category of rape or sexual abuse, because the psychological effects it could have are so predictable and powerful that a responsible person would take steps to avoid them.  Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

Immoral cunt! How the fuck do you compare being forcibly fucked against your will with going through all the traditional courtship rituals only later to find your date has an extra appendage? If you get to a point where you don't discover the 'boy parts' until you get naked...fucking joke's on you. How the fuck does this compare to rape? Your equivocation is disgusting.

[Ravenshire]

Well, when we say "black," we mean someone who has at least some African DNA, i.e. the African DNA of a few hundred years ago, not some residual DNA from a few hundred thousand.  So I'd say to be "black," you need a non-zero amount of that DNA.  Getting your hair crimped and applying a tanning agent is not sufficient.

So, I'm guessing that Australian aboriginals would not classify as "black" for you but some white skinned, fair haired South Africans, who's family can trace their roots back hundreds of years would?!? You've got a weird definition of "black."

[Nope]

Define 'has to'. I really don't know what you mean. She is female. She isn't 'imposing' anything on anybody.

If she chooses to go to a public instituion which allows nudity, like a changing room in a gym, then what?  Should other women have to put up with the sight of her penis flopping around in the ladies' changing room?  What if she decides to start dating, and she takes a man back to her place?  Should the man, upon discovering her penis, accept that she is a woman anyway?

What if she has a sex change, and doesn't tell prospective male sex partners her history?

I think transgender woman works fine, and I'm fine with "she."  But Jenner is not female in many of the ways that this word is normally used.  That's a statement of physical reality and simple semantic awareness.

When I have been in situations where other people were changing clothes, I didn't really look at them. Do other people watch each other getting dressed? Your descriptions makes me imagine her penis detaching itself from her body and flopping on the floor like a fish.   

People can say no to having a romantic relationship for whatever reason that they wish.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend.  Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn.  Sure, whatever.  I don't give a shit.  But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.  

And here, I'm not pretending, which is why I'm using the wrong pronouns, which would get me labeled transphobic, which is silly.  I think the the obligation of others to 'play along' is an interesting social issue.

Perhaps my problem is that I'm pretty loose in my views of gender roles.  If you're a male who wants to wear a dress, go for it.  If you want to get fake tits, and get some type of vagina thing going, that's fine too.  Which complicates the transgender issue, because all that's left in my mind for what defines gender is the scientific assignment of sex.

So when Bruce says he wants to be Caitlyn, nothing about Caitlyn is anything I would deem as necessary to identify as a female to do.  It's all just superficial.

It costs me nothing at all to treat others the way they ask, in the case of TG/TS folks.  If they want me to refer to them by a specific set of gender pronouns, I'll do it until they start pushing the ridiculous.

For example, there's a TS on a guitar forum where I post, born male, going through gender reassignment. I'm happy to call her "her" as she asks ... but when she started ranting about men one day and capped it off by saying that "unlike us women, they'll never know what childbirth feels like", well, then I have to say spare me the bullshit and pass the apple-butter.

I don't mind addressing anyone as they wish, but I won't let a label be used to doctor reality.

[Nope]

I think this is selfish and immoral.  If she is getting involved with a man, there are some obvious expectations-- specifically, that the woman he's having sex with is not a man made by surgery to look like a woman.  And that she doesn't have boy parts.  I don't think a transwoman's right to privacy trumps this poor guy's experience of having the trans-definition issue imposed on him unexpectedly.  Just to show up in the bedroom without first addressing the issue would constitute, in my opinion, a category of rape or sexual abuse, because the psychological effects it could have are so predictable and powerful that a responsible person would take steps to avoid them.  Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

 I am not certain why this is complicated. Why can't the guy simply say, no and walk away? People turn each other down for sex all the time. It isn't as if you are obligated to have sex with anyone.

[Regina]

I can't understand why people are coming for Caitlyn Jenner so much, it seems unfair to me. "Transgender" not one of these special snowflake tumblrina identities that never existed before Tumblr was a thing, she's hardly the first transgender woman to walk the Earth. Gender dysphoria is a real thing, Doctors haven't pulled this shit out their ass.

And whatever you think of her and her "condition", is it really going to kill you to call her by her preferred pronouns? No, it isn't. Just call her a woman, it won't kill you.

I don't know if race dysphoria is a thing, it's bordering on some quite racist undertones to say "I was born white and identify as black". It's like saying there's only one way to be black, and that's based on racial stereotypes. You might think "my lips are too small, they're not like a black person's" but not all black people have full lips, that's a stereotype. If you're a white person trying to "blacken" yourself, anything you do to make yourself seem more black is based in stereotypes of black people. The idea that you can feel you are born "the wrong race" suggests you think these "races" are fundamentally different from eachother, which is almost the textbook definition of what racism is.

That's not the same as Bruce becoming Caitlyn, whereby she can safely assume that, as a fact, most women have some form of a vagina, breasts, and female hormones. "Women have vaginas, breasts and female hormones" isn't a stereotype in the same way that "black people have wide noses and full lips" is.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Many trans women proudly label themselves TRANSwomen and not just "women". Identifying as a woman doesn't necessarily mean identifying with stereotypes. It just means she wants to be a woman.

And I want to be a pro basketball player.  I feel I'm the next Michael Jordan, but I'm trapped in a slow, clumsy white boy's body.  Maybe I should sue the NBA for not recruiting me.

An easier alternative would be to not worry so much about how others identify themselves so long as it doesn't harm you.

Just a thought, y'know.  Carry on.