The right to mis-define oneself

[bennyboy]

Is there a reason to say Bruce/carlin Jenner is a stegosaur if he/she/it feels with every fiber of his/her/its being that he/she/it is a roof lizard?

No, that would make her delusional, but this is an actual, described, diagnosable condition that has nothing to do with whims and everything to do with brain structure and chemistry

Can you demonstrate that being black isn't?

[robvalue]

What I've learnt recently is that someone's brain mapping can indeed be "set up" for a female body, even when they are otherwise born male, and vice versa.

I don't particularly care what people refer to themselves as. If they want me to call them something, then I'll call them that, within reason. The problem comes when you have to assess the legal aspects. You certainly don't automatically become something you're not just because you say it. I think in the above example at least, there is a strong case for legally being a different gender. (I'm aware the law already exists, I'm supporting it!)

[Longhorn]

What does that even mean? What makes a person's psychology "female?" Can I claim that I have "black" psychology, and make everyone call me Mr. T?

It means what it says: her brain is female, her personality is female, her identity is female

If you don't see the difference between something as fundamentally a part of one's identity as gender and something as arbitrary as 'race', I'm afraid I can't help you

Caitlyn/Bruce identifies as female, but I think this is a kind of sexism: it means he associates aspects of his own psychology with qualities that are considered female. This is stereotyping, and in my opinion, it's anti-feminist. A female isn't less of a woman if she's hairy, or strong, or has a heavy jaw. She's not less of a woman if she likes Monster Trucks, or watches Japanese squirrel-in-a-wood-chipper porn.

Bring transgender has nothing to do with gender roles or traits traditionally associated with the given gender, it's all about brain structure and chemistry

There IS no such thing as a female psychology, unless you are willing to stereotype.

One's gender identity has nothing to do with stereotypes, one's interests or clothing style, it's entirely independent of that

Why do you think there are no transwomen who aren't traditionally feminine?

I'm really starting to get irate about this issue, because everyone said that transgender, etc. WASN'T a slippery slope. Now we can see that every fucking person can decide how they want people to treat them. Okay, from now on, nobody else gets to address me without calling me Sir Donkey Dick the Magic Space Monkey. How dare anyone question my donkey dick magic space monkey-ness?

I have no idea what you're rambling on about.

What does 'now' mean in this context? Who was saying it wasn't a slippery slope? What changed?

people can decide how they want others to treat them?! OH THE HUMANITY

Seriously, though, you are misunderstanding and misrepresenting what being transgender means. It's not mis-defining oneself, but exactly the opposite and is a bad example for this discussion.

Equating gender dysphoria with wanting to have darker skin or believing you are a reptile is ridiculous, dishonest and makes you sound like an ignorant asshole. Please stop and do a little reading on the subject

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

[Longhorn]

No, that would make her delusional, but this is an actual, described, diagnosable condition that has nothing to do with whims and everything to do with brain structure and chemistry

Can you demonstrate that being black isn't?

Define black. What is black? How black is black enough for you? Can you demonstrate it's anything more than skin tone?

How much melanin does one need to have to be black?

[Longhorn]

Here's the thing though: what she actually is is a transwoman

I'm pretty sure Jenner doesn't want her license to read "transwoman."

That's funny, because I thought she came out as one just this year

[robvalue]

Can you demonstrate that being black isn't?

Define black. What is black? How black is black enough for you? Can you demonstrate it's anything more than skin tone?

How much melanin does one need to have to be black?

[comet]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/12/opinio...index.html

"In this day and age who in the world willingly wants to be black?"
I jokingly said that to my husband when news about Rachel Dolezal broke.
Dolezal, 37, is president of the Spokane, Washington, chapter of the NAACP whose racial identity is being questioned, now that her parents have produced what they say is her birth certificate. It appears to show that she is white.
They said their daughter, who reportedly earned a master's degree from the historically black Howard University in Washington, D.C., and is a professor of Africana Studies at Eastern Washington University, began to "disguise herself" as black after the family adopted four African-American children.
Don't get me wrong, I am a proud black woman who grew up in a family that is incredibly diverse and has such a heritage of hues that my parents were once questioned in a store as to where they "got that white baby from," as they carted around my fair-skinned and light-eyed infant nephew.


But with all the heated debate over race relations and the treatment of minorities by law enforcement, which has resulted in unrest and more than a few black mothers burying their sons and daughters, I was both flabbergasted and intrigued by any claim that a white woman would willingly pass as black.

Race isn't necessarily skin color

The concept of "passing" is something many African-Americans are familiar with. Some members of my own family were so light-skinned, with European features, that they willingly chose to live as white rather than deal with the discrimination of being black in America.
My mother, Patricia, who is fair and has greenish-gray eyes, tells the story of when her grandmother arrived at the bank where my mother worked after it closed. My biracial great-grandmother, Rose Evans, knocked on the window as my mother stood next to her white co-worker, counting out their drawer.
"There's a woman trying to get your attention," the co-worker told my mother.
When my mother responded "I know. That's just my grandmother," the co-worker continued: "No. There's a white woman trying to get your attention." "No. That's my grandmother," my mother repeated as her co-worker turned bright red with embarrassment.
The truth of the matter is that when it comes to race, you just can't tell from looking.
One of my closest friends, Jill Hudson, is a stunning woman and the product of two African-American parents. Yet she is so light, with straight hair, that when I excitedly shared with Baltimore Sun co-workers that "a new, black reporter" had been hired to cover police in Howard County, I was asked, when she showed up for her first day on the job: "Where is the new black reporter?"

Am I the only one who thinks people saying "I identify as X, therefore I am X" is bullshit?  Can I identify as a handicapped native lesbian elderly woman if I want to?

 "balance" is key here. This is one of those topics that is just not, as I say, "stupid simple".   Yes, we can join "clubs" and fit in most times. But there are other times that no matter what we do we just won't "fit in".  And sometimes that's ok.   For example, I can act intelligent, speak nice, and talk about control and some would call me an Oreo.

[Dystopia]

Many trans women proudly label themselves TRANSwomen and not just "women". Identifying as a woman doesn't necessarily mean identifying with stereotypes. It just means she wants to be a woman.

[bennyboy]

Many trans women proudly label themselves TRANSwomen and not just "women". Identifying as a woman doesn't necessarily mean identifying with stereotypes. It just means she wants to be a woman.

And I want to be a pro basketball player.  I feel I'm the next Michael Jordan, but I'm trapped in a slow, clumsy white boy's body.  Maybe I should sue the NBA for not recruiting me.

[bennyboy]

Define black. What is black? How black is black enough for you? Can you demonstrate it's anything more than skin tone?

How much melanin does one need to have to be black?

Well, when we say "black," we mean someone who has at least some African DNA, i.e. the African DNA of a few hundred years ago, not some residual DNA from a few hundred thousand. So I'd say to be "black," you need a non-zero amount of that DNA. Getting your hair crimped and applying a tanning agent is not sufficient.