I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

(June 12, 2015 at 11:30 pm)VeggieDog Wrote: I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

So is Bruce Jenner.

With this article and point it brings up, there is validity. For example, many native people that live near me, you wouldn't know they're native till they talked, or even told you if they live closer to the city.

I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend. Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn. Sure, whatever. I don't give a shit. But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.

And here, I'm not pretending, which is why I'm using the wrong pronouns, which would get me labeled transphobic, which is silly. I think the the obligation of others to 'play along' is an interesting social issue.

Perhaps my problem is that I'm pretty loose in my views of gender roles. If you're a male who wants to wear a dress, go for it. If you want to get fake tits, and get some type of vagina thing going, that's fine too. Which complicates the transgender issue, because all that's left in my mind for what defines gender is the scientific assignment of sex.

So when Bruce says he wants to be Caitlyn, nothing about Caitlyn is anything I would deem as necessary to identify as a female to do. It's all just superficial.

(June 13, 2015 at 1:58 am)wallym Wrote: I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend. Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn. Sure, whatever. I don't give a shit. But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.

Except psychologically, Caitlyn/Bruce is a woman

(June 13, 2015 at 1:58 am)wallym Wrote: And here, I'm not pretending, which is why I'm using the wrong pronouns, which would get me labeled transphobic, which is silly. I think the the obligation of others to 'play along' is an interesting social issue.

Play along? Tbh it's more about getting people you care about to recognize your true self and I don't see why anybody wouldn't want that

(June 13, 2015 at 1:58 am)wallym Wrote: Perhaps my problem is that I'm pretty loose in my views of gender roles. If you're a male who wants to wear a dress, go for it. If you want to get fake tits, and get some type of vagina thing going, that's fine too. Which complicates the transgender issue, because all that's left in my mind for what defines gender is the scientific assignment of sex.

Except what makes Caitlyn/Bruce a woman isn't the desire to wear dresses out high heels, it's feeling with every fibre of your body that you are a woman

Being transgender is not about gender roles
The mental condition associated with it, gender dysphoria causes significant dissonance between the brain and the body

(June 13, 2015 at 1:58 am)wallym Wrote: So when Bruce says he wants to be Caitlyn, nothing about Caitlyn is anything I would deem as necessary to identify as a female to do. It's all just superficial.

The superficial changes, like name and appearance, are made to make the person comfortable with themselves, because Bruce/Caitlyn already IS a woman and nothing about those changes makes that fact more or less valid

Transgender people are not a good example for this discussion, because they are not mis-identifying themselves, quite to the contrary actually

Is there a reason to say Bruce/carlin Jenner is a stegosaur if he/she/it feels with every fiber of his/her/its being that he/she/it is a roof lizard?

I thought humoring people's desire to Pretend they are really what they want to be, not what they actually are,  is not a sign of respect but of the sort of condescension reserved by adults for children.

(June 13, 2015 at 4:13 am)Chuck Wrote: Is there a reason to say Bruce/carlin Jenner is a stegosaur if he/she/it feels with every fiber of his/her/its being that he/she/it is a roof lizard?

No, that would make her delusional, but this is an actual, described, diagnosable condition that has nothing to do with whims and everything to do with brain structure and chemistry

Quote:I thought humoring people's desire to Pretend they are really what they want to be, not what they actually are,  is not a sign of respect but of the sort of condescension reserved by adults for children.

Here's the thing though: what she actually is is a transwoman

(June 13, 2015 at 4:08 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

(June 13, 2015 at 1:58 am)wallym Wrote: I'm definitely in the skeptical party that feels like we're being mandated to play pretend.  Bruce Jenner, for example, wants us to call him a her named Caitlyn.  Sure, whatever.  I don't give a shit.  But us all pretending he's a woman doesn't make him a woman in my mind.  

Except psychologically, Caitlyn/Bruce is a woman

What does that even mean? What makes a person's psychology "female?" Can I claim that I have "black" psychology, and make everyone call me Mr. T?

Caitlyn/Bruce identifies as female, but I think this is a kind of sexism: it means he associates aspects of his own psychology with qualities that are considered female. This is stereotyping, and in my opinion, it's anti-feminist. A female isn't less of a woman if she's hairy, or strong, or has a heavy jaw. She's not less of a woman if she likes Monster Trucks, or watches Japanese squirrel-in-a-wood-chipper porn. There IS no such thing as a female psychology, unless you are willing to stereotype.

I'm really starting to get irate about this issue, because everyone said that transgender, etc. WASN'T a slippery slope. Now we can see that every fucking person can decide how they want people to treat them. Okay, from now on, nobody else gets to address me without calling me Sir Donkey Dick the Magic Space Monkey. How dare anyone question my donkey dick magic space monkey-ness?

This tendency of making shit up and making people pretend they believe it isn't liberal. It's religious.

(June 13, 2015 at 4:33 am)Neimenovic Wrote: Here's the thing though: what she actually is is a transwoman

I'm pretty sure Jenner doesn't want her license to read "transwoman."