The right to mis-define oneself

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm waiting to see someone that is both transgendered and transracial.

Imagine if Bruce Jenner saw himself not as Caitlin but as Waneesa.

MIchael Jackson sure gave it the ole college try.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

Trauma is a world apart from an unpleasant surprise. You're normally more thoughtful than this, BB.

[bennyboy]

I think this is selfish and immoral.  If she is getting involved with a man, there are some obvious expectations-- specifically, that the woman he's having sex with is not a man made by surgery to look like a woman.  And that she doesn't have boy parts.  I don't think a transwoman's right to privacy trumps this poor guy's experience of having the trans-definition issue imposed on him unexpectedly.  To just show up in the bedroom without first addressing the issue would constitute, in my opinion, a category of rape or sexual abuse, because the psychological effects it could have are so predictable and powerful that a responsible person would take steps to avoid them.  Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

Immoral cunt! How the fuck do you compare being forcibly fucked against your will with going through all the traditional courtship rituals only later to find your date has an extra appendage? If you get to a point where you don't discover the 'boy parts' until you get naked...fucking joke's on you. How the fuck does this compare to rape? Your equivocation is disgusting.

If you don't think a man should should be traumatized by that situation, then fuck you too.  I'm a man, and if that happened to me, I would be traumatized.  And I can speak on behalf of many of my male friends, and say that they would be, too.

That's the thing-- you don't get to say who is/isn't or should be/shouldn't be traumatized.  If you don't think the majority of men would be traumatized if their hot date turned out to have a penis, then you are either living under a rock, or a liar.

[bennyboy]

Well, when we say "black," we mean someone who has at least some African DNA, i.e. the African DNA of a few hundred years ago, not some residual DNA from a few hundred thousand.  So I'd say to be "black," you need a non-zero amount of that DNA.  Getting your hair crimped and applying a tanning agent is not sufficient.

So, I'm guessing that Australian aboriginals would not classify as "black" for you but some white skinned, fair haired South Africans, who's family can trace their roots back hundreds of years would?!? You've got a weird definition of "black."

No, I don't think I do.  I think in America, when people say "black" or "colored," they are referring specifically to African origin.

[bennyboy]

 I am not certain why this is complicated. Why can't the guy simply say, no and walk away? People turn each other down for sex all the time. It isn't as if you are obligated to have sex with anyone.

I'm not talking about the act. I'm talking about the psychological effect. If anyone here disagrees that the average man would NOT be shocked or possibly traumatized by a last-minute reveal, then that's a different conversation.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you don't think a man should should be traumatized by that situation, then fuck you too.  I'm a man, and if that happened to me, I would be traumatized.  And I can speak on behalf of many of my male friends, and say that they would be, too.

That's the thing-- you don't get to say who is/isn't or should be/shouldn't be traumatized.  If you don't think the majority of men would be traumatized if their hot date turned out to have a penis, then you are either living under a rock, or a liar.

I suppose we have different ideas about trauma. What makes yours so special that it ranks with rape?

[bennyboy]

And I want to be a pro basketball player.  I feel I'm the next Michael Jordan, but I'm trapped in a slow, clumsy white boy's body.  Maybe I should sue the NBA for not recruiting me.

An easier alternative would be to not worry so much about how others identify themselves so long as it doesn't harm you.

Just a thought, y'know.  Carry on.

We are all part of this culture, and redefinition of words in a social context affects us all.  It affects our view of laws, of manners, and of ethics.  I think my views represent the majority, though perhaps not on AF, and I feel perfectly comfortable discussing them.  And so I should.

[bennyboy]

I suppose we have different ideas about trauma. What makes yours so special that it ranks with rape?

I'm not ranking trauma. I'm saying that there IS trauma, and that it's not right for someone to put a man in a situation where he's likely to experience it.

We can argue about the rights and wrongs all day, but I think it is a fact that many men would be traumatized in that situation, and every transwoman with a penis surely knows this fact.

[SteelCurtain]

 I am not certain why this is complicated. Why can't the guy simply say, no and walk away? People turn each other down for sex all the time. It isn't as if you are obligated to have sex with anyone.

I'm not talking about the act. I'm talking about the psychological effect. If anyone here disagrees that the average man would NOT be shocked or possibly traumatized by a last-minute reveal, then that's a different conversation.

Woah Woah Woah... this is a massive red herring. Last minute reveal is not a quality of transgendered people. It is a quality of a bad person. If a transgendered person didn't tell an intimate partner they were about to have sex with that they are preoperative trans, then the person cannot make a fully informed decision in consenting to a sexual encounter. Now, I can only go by what my reaction would be, and that would be anger at not being told. I certainly wouldn't be traumatized. I'm not afraid of penises. But I can only assume that some men might be afraid of seeing a penis by surprise. I think maybe some guys might think they had a gay experience. But if you were attracted to someone who is female, then a quick thought about it would erase that fear. Also, removing the thought that a gay experience (even though you're not having one) doesn't make you less of a man or less straight would help.

A transgender person is not required to tell everyone they meet that they are transgender, but adult sexual situations do require that a person be fully informed as to what they're getting into.

To imply that there are transgendered people out there all over the place that will just trick you into bed is really disingenuous. There is probably a roughly equal incidence of shitty trans people as there are shitty everyone else.

[bennyboy]

I'm not talking about the act.  I'm talking about the psychological effect.  If anyone here disagrees that the average man would NOT be shocked or possibly traumatized by a last-minute reveal, then that's a different conversation.

Woah Woah Woah... this is a massive red herring. Last minute reveal is not a quality of transgendered people. It is a quality of a bad person. If a transgendered person didn't tell an intimate partner they were about to have sex with that they are preoperative trans, then the person cannot make a fully informed decision in consenting to a sexual encounter.

Woah woah woah, you.  I agree 100% with everything you said.  That's why this thread is pissing me off-- I'm not against people being transgendered, and I support Caitlyn's right to be / be called whatever she wants. But if woman means what people here are saying it means, then there IS no reponsibility to inform before a sexual accounter, because according to them a pre-op transgender person is in fact fully woman. A full woman who just happens to be packing a penis.