What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[robvalue]

Oh yeah, I forgot!

Why have I ever had sex then? I've never had any intention of reproducing, and I never will.

I don't want some freaky thing that looks a bit like me being sick everywhere and screaming... one is enough for my wife to deal with

The fact that Catholic Lady says she only finds it immoral because of God is something I can't understand... the connection between anal sex and the creator of the universe?! Again not expecting a response, just brain storming I'll call Columbo.

[pocaracas]

Oh yeah, I forgot!

Why have I ever had sex then? I've never had any intention of reproducing, and I never will.

I don't want some freaky thing that looks a bit like me being sick everywhere and screaming... one is enough for my wife to deal with

The fact that Catholic Lady says she only finds it immoral because of God is something I can't understand... the connection between anal sex and the creator of the universe?! Again not expecting a response, just brain storming I'll call Columbo.

WHAT?!?!
You blasphemer!!! You are having immoral sex!!!
STOP at ONCE!!

[robvalue]

Okay, hang on...

Alright. I stopped Now I gotta go tip some prams over.

[Catholic_Lady]

How do you know anything about what "God" wants, Lady?

Hi Stimbo. I think looking at the words and actions of Jesus (whom I believe is God) provides a great insight for me into "what God wants."

---

Thank you so much for the kind words, but you are giving me way too much credit!

I actually do not have to get up early to work. My husband had to get up early to work, and I like to get up with him to see him off and prepare his breakfast/lunch. I actually don't have a job currently. My husband is an Air Force pilot and we currently live in a very small town in the Middle-of-Nowhere, Texas. So I stay home and take care of house work and of our cats.

I agree with you that if I was born in the middle east I would probably be Muslim. I'd like to think I'd convert to Christianity, but I cannot say for sure since I have never been in that position.

Either way, I do not think the fact that there are many religions out there is a disproof of God. I believe it makes it tricky to *choose* one and have faith in it, but I do not believe it disproves all of them. In the end of the day, ONE of us is right... even if that is you, fellow atheist!

---

Hello again CL ...
You're obviously happy with your religion. I should point out though is that you never had a choice in the matter.
Your indoctrination made sure of that. (I don't say that in a bad way)
If you were born a muslim, you would've been equally proud of that religion as the ONE TRUE religion. (Again via indoctrination)
An extremely small % of adults find god or convert outside of childhood indoctrination.

Anyway, on to the serious stuff now! I've got "HachiBabba", my chocolate oriental sitting on my lap as I type this! (spoilt beyong repair)
What sort of cats to you have? We have several "crazy" cat ladies here also.

catch...

I'll agree with you there.

Of course, I'd like to think that if I was born into any other faith I'd somehow find my way to Christianity, but chances are I probably wouldn't.

Aww, I love the name!! All my cats are short hairs of no particular breed. I adopted 2 of them from the humane society and they were my first cats. But once I moved to this town, I started feeding all the strays (there are a lot of strays here), and ended up adopting 4 of them off the street. I just couldn't leave them! So now I have 6 total.

[Whateverist]

Two questions we've all been wondering about but have been too polite to ask:

#1 Is that really you in your avatar picture? Or are you really some balding, paunchy Catholic guy with a lot of missionary zeal?

#2 Do you ever do anything with strangers you meet on the internet which you are required to bring up in confession? (I'm not asking for myself, honest. But some of the guys have been wanting to know.)

[Catholic_Lady]

Things to take away from this thread:

- Good either comes from a god who keeps changing his mind; or from a society that keeps evolving to better fit everyone in and keep most of them happy.

- Catholic marriage only pertains to man+woman. Catholic marriage is NOT a civil marriage. Civil marriage allows (in some countries) same sex unions and confers them the same rights as man/woman couples. As a corollary in this part of the discussion, it seems obvious that our Catholic_girl was married a virgin to a military guy and, after some time of marriage, is still without children. She also likes cats.

- Priests are human beings. So are school teachers. Some of them like young kids... a lot... a few act on that. Both higher powers in their respective hierarchies have, in the past and present, shoved around the problematic individuals around in an effort to keep the priest/teacher in functions, while keeping the person away from the authorities. These two classes of people, who, in our society, hold a lot of power over our children, have misbehaved, and yet... we need them around... well, believers need priests, everyone needs teachers. How to keep the bad ones at bay in both cases? psych-tests?

- Catholics may choose to look at he OT as metaphorical and a lot of the NT as obvious allegory. What matters for real is the catechism... which takes a few lesson from the bible, but extrapolates a ton of other stuff.

- Atheists can be kind people. Who'd have thought?

I probably missed something... it's not easy to sum up 52 pages of you people hounding the poor girl. And that avatar of hers only made you hound her even more!

Wow, thanks for the recap! You have been paying attention!

Everything here is correct... the only objection I would make is that God does not change lol.

I'd also add that schools and churches are not the only establishments that have people who are bad people. I'd say every establishment has its bad seeds. Of course, any time we are talking about a profession where people are put in a position of power and are made to deal with vulnerable people, there will be the wolves who take advantage of the situation in one way or another. Not saying this is any excuse for either churches or schools, just saying it isn't at all limited to those 2 establishments.

[FatAndFaithless]

Two questions we've all been wondering about but have been too polite to ask:

#1 Is that really you in your avatar picture? Or are you really some balding, paunchy Catholic guy with a lot of missionary zeal?

#2 Do you ever do anything with strangers you meet on the internet which you are required to bring up in confession? (I'm not asking for myself, honest. But some of the guys have been wanting to know.)

...Huh?

[Catholic_Lady]

It occurs to me that I didn't welcome you to the forum C_L, which I do so now.
HOWEVER.
Though you seem like a decent person, you appear to have fallen into the trap of committing doublethink to accomodate your religious beliefs. In my view, this is one of the great fundamental evils of organised religion - it makes good people do bad things, or adopt unhealthy viewpoints. Also, you say you were 'born a catholic', which is nonsense. Nobody is 'born' a catholic, or born a muslim, or born a jew or hindu or sikh or buddhist. You were born a human being as we all were, the filling of your head with fluff came after
Still, welcome to the forum, I hope you enjoy your time here

-Thanks!

-Can you give me examples of bad things I've done and/or unhealthy view points I have due to my beliefs?

-Haha, you are correct on that. I just meant I was born into a Catholic family and baptized when I was a baby.

-Thanks again!

---

CL wrote:

"Regardless of my views on the morality of this though, I would never say that any 2 consenting adults should not be allowed to be together. It is their right to make that decision, and I respect their right to do so!"

Can anyone see the Freudian here?

Lol... no?

Can you explain?

---

Well first you have to understand that Hell is not a place you go to, kicking and screaming, where you will be burned and tortured by little men with horns. Hell is simply the only place where God is not present. And since God is goodness and love, Hell is a place where goodness and love are not present. That's why it is so bad.

The people who go to Hell are the people who reject goodness and love. For someone to avoid Hell, they don't necessarily have to believe in God. Maybe they were never taught about God. Maybe they just honestly could not bring themselves to believe He is real. This does not automatically mean they will go to Hell. What *does* automatically mean someone is going to Hell is that person's rejection of love and goodness, since God is love and goodness.

So the person who goes to Hell, a place where love and goodness are not present, is a person who *put themselves there* by choosing to reject love and goodness.

There is nothing immoral about Jesus being the messenger of this news.

As for your thing about thoughts... thoughts certainly can be immoral if they are intentionally indulged upon. For example, I am married. If I *choose* to sit around and day dream all day about having sex with another man, I am doing something immoral. I am not talking about involuntarily having a thought pop in my head and then brushing it away. I am talking about actively day dreaming and fantasizing about other men. A more obvious example would be a man who is attracted to children. If an inappropriate thought about children involuntarily pops into his head, and he pushes it away, he did not do anything wrong. But if he makes the conciese decision to sit there and start fantasisincg about rapping children, he is doing something immoral.

Jesus was simply reminding us that yes, thoughts *can* be immoral.

First, I like your sig, but the only religions I can think of that seem to be based on it are Jainism, Quakerism, and Universalism.

Second your description of hell sounds very made-up. You've dumped omnipresence from your version of God's list of omniattributes to come up with a version of hell that makes God seem less culpable for eternal torture (as though the creator of a system that results in eternal torture for anyone can escape culpability by semantic tricks). If you're going to be that unbiblical, why not chuck hell altogether, or make it brief? Your main guide to belief seems to be avoiding anything that might make you uncomfortable, why hold on to hell at all? It can easily go away or be transformed into a temporary, education experience through the magic of cherry-picking and scriptural interpretation.

-Thank you. Why not Catholicism?

-Well, the basis and important part of what I need to know about Hell as a Catholic is that it is a place where God is not present. The rest (whether it has fire, etc) is really just detail. The thing I said about goodness and love is something that some theologians, after years of study and dedication, have said. It made sense to me and that is what I have chosen to believe about it.

[Whateverist]

Two questions we've all been wondering about but have been too polite to ask:

#1  Is that really you in your avatar picture?  Or are you really some balding, paunchy Catholic guy with a lot of missionary zeal?

#2  Do you ever do anything with strangers you meet on the internet which you are required to bring up in confession?  (I'm not asking for myself, honest.  But some of the guys have been wanting to know.)

...Huh?

Just another lame attempt at levity.  Too much time on my hands.  I'll just go stand in the corner.

[The Grand Nudger]

Wow, thanks for the recap! You have been paying attention!

Everything here is correct... the only objection I would make is that God does not change lol.

I'd also add that schools and churches are not the only establishments that have people who are bad people. I'd say every establishment has its bad seeds. Of course, any time we are talking about a profession where people are put in a position of power and are made to deal with vulnerable people, there will be the wolves who take advantage of the situation in one way or another. Not saying this is any excuse for either churches or schools, just saying it isn't at all limited to those 2 establishments.

"other people do it too"

No argument from me...but you have to understand that this is also no argument -from you-.  You aren't defending or ameliorating anyone with this, only implicating others when your organization simply cannot be exonerated.  That other people do immoral things and abuse their positions is a problem, not salvation or a response to accusations for -your- organization when it does immoral things and abuses it's authority.

And yes...contrary to your protestations..the pope -was- part of the problem. He was complicit. He was informed, he did not act as he should, and he washed his hands - as you are doing now..when you plead with us to stop staring at the peedo ring you call a bastion of morality...and instead look at all of the -other- bad folks. I'm looking at them, and your organization is among them.....what is it I'm supposed to see?

"I know this isn't an excuse guys...but here's my excuse" - this is the same nonsense as before, regarding homosexuality. If you found out that your local school district was sheltering pedophiles (and bluntly, assisting them in their target selection), would you then make "non-excuses" on the grounds that priests do it too.....or would you pull your kids, scream at the top of your lungs, and refuse to support them until that behavior ceased -if ever again-? What does your gut tell you, here?