Thoughts on this apologetic

[Mr.wizard]

Lek, your referring to the jesus sacrifice fulfilling the sacrificial law of the old testament, so basically he covered the atonement for our sins. Does that mean that Christians do not have to follow these laws or do they just have no accountability when they break them?

We are required to follow the moral requirements of the law as summed up in the two great commandments.  

Matthew 22:37-40New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
[/b]

So, what happens if you don't follow those laws?

[Lek]

We are required to follow the moral requirements of the law as summed up in the two great commandments.  

Matthew 22:37-40New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
[/b]

So, what happens if you don't follow those laws?

Our salvation is not directly linked to how perfectly we obey God's commandments, but rather whether we come to faith in Christ. If we have faith in him, he will be our lord and we will try to live lives according to his will. We will fail at times, recognize our failure and ask for forgiveness. One who continually refuses to follow these commandments, obviously has no faith in Christ and no desire to follow him. They would not receive salvation in this state.

[Redbeard The Pink]

So, what happens if you don't follow those laws?

Our salvation is not directly linked to how perfectly we obey God's commandments, but rather whether we come to faith in Christ.  If we have faith in him, he will be our lord and we will try to live lives according to his will.  We will fail at times, recognize our failure and ask for forgiveness.  One who continually refuses to follow these commandments, obviously has no faith in Christ and no desire to follow him.  They would not receive salvation in this state.

So the answer is that both believers and non-believers go on sinning, but believers feel bad and pretend to try not to, and they're covered by a sacrifice that says as long as they're "repentant," they can keep "failing." and it's OK.


Bottom line: the answer you should have given is that you're not accountable when you do break old testament law. Instead, you gave a statement that borders on self-contradictory, in which salvation is not based on works, but if works do not manifest then salvation wasn't "real." It's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy wearing a disguise it obviously believes to be very clever. It is not.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Lek, your referring to the jesus sacrifice fulfilling the sacrificial law of the old testament, so basically he covered the atonement for our sins. Does that mean that Christians do not have to follow these laws or do they just have no accountability when they break them?

We are required to follow the moral requirements of the law as summed up in the two great commandments.  

Matthew 22:37-40New International Version (NIV)
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 [b]All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
[/b]

Did Jesus create a new commandment when he said: "Love your neighbor as yourself"?  He made up a lot of new ones in the Sermon on the Mount.

[Lek]

I've been wondering about something recently and I wanted to ask you guys about it. Sometimes I'll hear opponents of Christianity argue that, in order to be a true Christian, one must abide by all of the OT laws - even the ones that are highly immoral and unethical (i.e. Deuteronomy 21:18-21). There are a few common apologetics that I'll hear in response to this, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are regarding them.

The first one goes something like "Well, those laws were intended for the ancient Hebrews, modern day Christians aren't expected to follow them." I'm genuinely curious in regard to this, what does the bible have to say on that? What OT laws are gentile Christians expected to obey, and which ones do they get a pass on? Could you guys refer me to any literature on this matter?

The second thing they'll sometimes do is just throw Matthew 22:34-40 back at the person in question:
The Great Commandment
But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

What do you guys think? Is that a fair counter-argument or are there problems with it?

The last one I'll hear (that I guess is somewhat related to the first apologetic I listed) is that Jesus's death on the cross gives them a free pass from having to obey the OT laws. Now, I've heard that the consensus among the scholarly community is that really the only thing that this gives Christians a pass on is having to offer sacrifices to YHWH. I guess I'd like to ask if you guys can verify that as being correct, and then if there's any further literature you might recommend that critiques this apologetic.

Thanks!

In Act 15 the Jewish christians were telling the gentile converts to christinity that they must be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul took the issue to the church leaders in Jerusalem where it was agreed upon that they should not trouble them with the burdens of the old testament law. Then there is the following verse:

Romans 4:14 English Standard Version (ESV)

14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

[Cato]

Not in Alabama..... of course, there they fuck their sisters a lot which is pretty "biblical."

Don't they have sheep?

Yes, but you have to remember we're talking about Alabama men; sheep terrify them. Years ago they accosted a flock, but quickly realized ewe cunt and ram ass were full of razors. Nobody has the heart to tell them they attempted to impregnate a field of cotton out of sympathy for the sheep.