Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[Randy Carson]

I was raised in a very Christian household.  But I do remember sitting in church during a sermon concerning Genesis and wondering how adults could believe any of it (it happened before kindergarten but how much before I don't know). It's a question that returned to my mind over and over. But no one tried to convince me.  They simply presented god as a given.  And they didn't talk of learning to believe in god, though they did pray to continue to believe in him (imagine a group of physicists praying to continue to believe in The Theory of Relativity despite the opposition of the world) which was not very reassuring.

So, as a child, you had questions about God that no one answered. And those seeds of doubt grew up and have borne fruit in the form of unbelieving children. Yep. Makes sense to me. You've never experienced mature faith as an adult.

I'm curious, though. Have you sought answers to those questions since becoming an adult? With an open mind? Or do you spend the majority of your free time posting here and reading authors who continue to confirm what you have already decided to be true?

You see, there are no successful rational arguments for god. 

Define successful.
Define rational.

[Randy Carson]

The Minimal Facts are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion

A lot of people during that time did.  There is no reason to believe >if< Jesus existed, that this would make the situation special at all.

That's not the point. Jesus died by crucifixion. Not in an old folks home. This becomes relevant in light of the rest of the facts.

2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them

People on drugs/alcohol possibly believe purple dragons steal their farts.  The unsubstantiated claims of what some ancient goat herders may or may not have believed is completely moot.

So, it is your theory then that the disciples hallucinated the appearances of Jesus? Is that your final answer?

3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed.

Good for him?  This is barely a fact, and an irrelevant one at that.

In your opinion, what explains the reason why Paul, a rising star among the Pharisees, suddenly chucked it all and joined the Church he was persecuting?

4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed.

See previous answer.

In your opinion, what explains the reason why James, who had been skeptical of his brother, Jesus, all of his life, suddenly became one of his most devoted followers enduring even martyrdom?

5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty.

Cool.  So what?  Somebody could have stolen it, animals could have gotten to it, etc ad nauseum.  >If< Jesus existed, there is a myriad of logical reasons a body may not be found.  

So, the body was stolen but you're not sure about those details, correct?

Do you have a theory about what happened that accounts for all five?

If so, we need to give it careful consideration. Thanks.

Yep.  Sure do.

Great! Let's here your full explanation that takes all five into account adequately. Thanks!

[Pizza]

Song that never ends vv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz6OGVCdov8

[Randy Carson]

I still haven't seen any facts, let alone five of them.

The Minimal Facts are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Do you have a theory about what happened that accounts for all five?

If so, we need to give it careful consideration. Thanks.

[Jenny A]

So, as a child, you had questions about God that no one answered. And those seeds of doubt grew up and have borne fruit in the form of unbelieving children. Yep. Makes sense to me. You've never experienced mature faith as an adult.

I'm curious, though. Have you sought answers to those questions since becoming an adult? With an open mind? Or do you spend the majority of your free time posting here and reading authors who continue to confirm what you have already decided to be true?

I can't remember ever believing in god, let alone as an adult. But let's not make this thread about me, it's about the evidence, or as it turns out the lack there of.

Define successful.
Define rational.

Empirical, logical and convincing. Convinced anyone yet? Because I don't think it can be done rationally.

[Spooky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdCy6MGOVfw

[robvalue]

Has anyone tried to address why God sends people here to convince us, knowing they will fail? Isn't that mean of him?

Or does he not know? Is he surprised? Why doesn't he give you some more evidence instead of watching you spin your wheels and repeat the same things over and over?

The default position here is that the power of atheists on this forum to "deny" things is more powerful than anything God can/will do.

The best argument against atheism I have at the moment is that it must be wrong because it's too fucking easy.

[Spooky]

That's not the point. Jesus died by crucifixion. Not in an old folks home. This becomes relevant in light of the rest of the facts.

Yeah, no, no it doesn't.  Whether he died on a cross or from a brain parasite, this is completely irrelevant.  And this is still conjecture that must follow substantial proof - >if< the biblical jesus ever existed.

So, it is your theory then that the disciples hallucinated the appearances of Jesus? Is that your final answer?

My answer is just as irrelevant as the question.  You have yet to establish these visions as beliefs or fact.  Again, this line of thought must follow that.

In your opinion, what explains the reason why Paul, a rising star among the Pharisees, suddenly chucked it all and joined the Church he was persecuting?

Honestly?  I don't care.  This doesn't prove any resurrection at all.  Even if this sudden change of position were proved, we'd never be able to prove the why.  

In your opinion, what explains the reason why James, who had been skeptical of his brother, Jesus, all of his life, suddenly became one of his most devoted followers enduring even martyrdom?

Still, see previous answer.  Can you prove they existed without using the bible?  If so, great.  Can you prove there wasn't something non-magical to gain?  

So, the body was stolen but you're not sure about those details, correct?

I don't care about the details.  1. You can't prove (without the bible) that there was a body.  2. The reasons a body may go missing are too numerous to assume something magical happened.

Great! Let's here your full explanation that takes all five into account adequately. Thanks!

You are presenting these five things as facts.  I'm going to help you out a bit today:

fact
fakt/Submit
noun
a thing that is indisputably the case.
"she lacks political experience—a fact that becomes clear when she appears in public"
synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty; More
used in discussing the significance of something that is the case.
noun: the fact that
"the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut"
a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, ingredient, circumstance, aspect, facet; information
"every fact was double-checked"

[Randy Carson]

So, as a child, you had questions about God that no one answered. And those seeds of doubt grew up and have borne fruit in the form of unbelieving children. Yep. Makes sense to me. You've never experienced mature faith as an adult.

I'm curious, though. Have you sought answers to those questions since becoming an adult? With an open mind? Or do you spend the majority of your free time posting here and reading authors who continue to confirm what you have already decided to be true?

I can't remember ever believing in god, let alone as an adult. But let's not make this thread about me, it's about the evidence, or as it turns out the lack there of.  

That's fair. I know what it's like to have a thread turn personal. And I don't like it, either.

Define successful.
Define rational.

Empirical, logical and convincing.  Convinced anyone yet?  Because I don't think it can be done rationally.

Well, in that case, there are many proofs of God that people find convincing. Here's a two-part article on an argument from Thomas Aquinas that you might like:

The Splendor of Thomistic Theism
http://www.strangenotions.com/the-splend...ic-theism/

Why Aquinas’ Argument for God Succeeds and Others Fall Short
http://www.strangenotions.com/why-aquina...all-short/

I plan on reading this tonight, so perhaps we can discuss it after we've both had a chance to digest it.

[Minimalist]

Well, I know I have done well when even the great Minimalist is forced to give up his usual profanity-laced one-line responses and actually dig for a more substantive response on the Internet.

Nah, that was for the normal and sane people on the board.  You, are still just a dumb fuck spouting the same old nonsense over and over.  You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the ass.

You're quite beyond hope.  In your case, the fucking bible probably is about all you can comprehend.