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Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
#1
Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
In this thread, I plan on arguing for the resurrection of Jesus using the "minimal facts approach" pioneered by Gary Habermas.

Prior to starting this thread, I did a search using the term "minimal facts" to determine whether this topic has been overdone in this forum. Based upon the very limited (almost non-existent) results of that search, I have concluded that the topic will be reasonably fresh for the membership. It is my hope that those who are more familiar with the approach will be patient while new members (and new atheists) are considering the material perhaps for the first time.

The minimal facts approach argues for the resurrection of Jesus based only on evidence that is so strongly attested historically that it is granted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the skeptical ones.

Consequently, this discussion will not consider whether the New Testament is reliable nor attempt to prove that it is. The conclusion that Jesus did rise from the dead will not depend upon that argument.

Before I present the minimal facts, I'd like to say a few words about the nature of historical evidence. When it comes to historical facts, we can only speak in terms of probability and not absolute 100% certainty. For example, consider the following spectrum:


Very Doubtful      Quite Doubtful      Somewhat Doubtful    Uncertain     Somewhat Certain    Quite Certain     Very Certain
______|____________|________________|____________|_____________|______________|___________|____


We will be seeking to determine whether the evidence for the resurrection moves us to the right or left of the mid-point (uncertain) of this range of opinions.

Additionally, we must keep in mind that the standards of evidence do not require that the case for something is irrefutable. Rather, the standard requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal cases and proof that makes the truth of an accusation more probable than not in civil cases. If this is not understood, then the skeptics' demand for proof may be unrealistic.

At this point, I'd like to offer a response to those who are fond of saying, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." No, extraordinary claims require sufficient evidence...just like any other kind of claim. It is my firm belief that sufficient evidence for the resurrection can (and will) be presented.

The Minimal Facts (4+1)

The minimal facts include four that are so strongly evidenced that nearly every scholar (including the skeptic) regards them as reliable facts. The fifth fact, the "+1", is accepted by a significant number of scholars though not nearly as many as the first four.

The Minimal Facts are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

In subsequent posts, I will present the evidence in support of each of these facts.
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#2
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
1. Jesus died by crucifixion

This is a claim only.  Many people were crucified, no doubt some of them with the same name.  There is no evidence that the person referred to in the bible was actually a living, breathing person.

2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them

Yes they did.  And their accounts of this "event" are contradictory at best.  But then some people claim that Jesus appears to them on toast.  Are we to believe them, just because they make the claim?

3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed

People change.  I've known truly devout people in one religion to become truly devout in another. 

4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed

As above.


5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Again, a claim.  See my answer to 1., above

Playing Cluedo with my mum while I was at Uni:

"You did WHAT?  With WHO?  WHERE???"
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#3
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
Quote:he minimal facts include four that are so strongly evidenced that nearly every scholar (including the skeptic) regards them as reliable facts.

I don't give a flying fuck about their opinions...and especially yours.

Where is the evidence to sustain these absurd claims?

P.S. You know what will happen if you come back citing your fucking bible.
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#4
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
Sorry Randy but I'm going to talk about you and not to you.

Why do so many of you engage this person? My belief is that you are reinforcing his/her delusions, one of fantasy and one of grandeur.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#5
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
For the entertainment value.
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#6
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(June 24, 2015 at 9:25 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: In subsequent posts, I will present the evidence in support of each of these facts.

Translation: I'll continue to do parlor tricks in an effort to keep your attention diverted while the guest of honor (God) doesn't show.

Randy,
Seriously, you've got nothing. If anyone had evidence for any god there would be no atheists.
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#7
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
1. Obi-Wan Kenobi died in a lightsabre duel.
2. Kenobi's apprentice and former master saw he had risen and appeared to them.
3. Darth Vader, the persecutor of the Jedi, was suddenly changed.
4. Han Solo, the sceptical pilot for Kenobi, was suddenly changed.
5. Kenobi's robes were found to be empty.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#8
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
"Minimal facts" ... how perfectly appropriate.

It doesn't help your point that each of those five statements are articles of faith. Considering that you've already written off the New Testament as useful evidence, I'm thinking this thread will have some entertainment value, but little substance.

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#9
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
Double post see below.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#10
RE: Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach
(June 24, 2015 at 10:48 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote: "Minimal facts" ... how perfectly appropriate.

It doesn't help your point that each of those five statements are articles of faith.  Considering that you've already written off the New Testament as useful evidence, I'm thinking this thread will have some entertainment value, but little substance.

I have a hunch that the concept of a fact is going to be taking it up the ass from this guy.

Quote:fact




noun \ˈfakt\
: something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence
: a true piece of information


Merriam-Webster against Randy.  Whoever shall prevail?
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