Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[IATIA]

No, I actually don't.

I don't need a theory for the origins of the universe better than 'magic pink unicorn created it' to reject that theory as implausible.

Lol. As you almost found out, there are many things that haunt me, Randy, but resurrection is not one of them.

I don't know, Randy. I'm not even convinced Jesus existed and died, because I don't have enough information to make a judgement.

No, you have enough information. What you lack is the guts to make the decision to accept Jesus.

IF jesus did exist and was crucified and rose.  Who is to say that he was not just in a coma?

There is no proof that ANYONE has ever risen from the dead.  That would require two pieces of information.  Proof they were dead in the first place and proof they were now alive.  It has NEVER been done.  You can rant and rave and hold your breath.  You can provide links to all kinds of bullshit, but there is no proof that jesus was dead and there is no proof that he rose from the dead.  The evidence that he even existed is weak at best.

[Jenny A]

[Pizza]

[Pizza]

This is getting harder to proofread and edit.

[Randy Carson]

[quote='Neimenovic' pid='984571' dateline='1436299861']
But what I do know is that there hasn't been one documented case of a human being coming back to life after being dead for three days.

Of course there has. We're discussing it now.

And based on that information and the unconvincing nature of your evidence, I reject your theory of resurrection.

And this is your mistake.

Sure, although natural causes should be considered first, a supernatural cause may be considered when all natural theories fail, and there is credible evidence in favor of divine intervention.

You have no credible alternatives that are without objections, and in light of these, the resurrection is the BEST explanation of the information we have to consider.

A ridiculous violation of basic laws of biology is not the best explanation. Ever heard of Occam's razor?

I have.

Moreover, the laws of nature would be no match for an omnipotent God who chooses to act by superseding those laws. Thus, the entire naturalistic mindset misses the forest for the trees. The issue here is not whether everything can be explained by the laws of nature. The crucial question is whether there is a God who may have superseded nature by a superior power. Scientific reliance upon natural processes to explain everything does not answer the question of whether all things that happen are controlled by natural processes. God may have stepped in to do something that nature or science cannot explain. Futher, if we had evidence that such an event occurred, this data would actually be superior to the natural working of nature's laws, since that would mean that god performed an act for which nature cannot account. The result of this circumstance is that historical evidence might, for a brief time, actually supersede scientific evidence, since it means that at that very moment, God intervened in nature.

Finally, certain miracles have characteristics that show that they are actually caused by interferences with the laws of nature. Professor Richard Swinburne suggests that the best case for recognizing a miracle would include:

1. It has never happened before or since;
2. the event definitely cannot be accounted for by a current law of nature; and
3. no foreseeable revision of our statements concerning the laws of nature could explain the event in natural terms.

Randy is simply aping what skeptics do.  The problem is that he's placing far more weight on the bible (which is really the claim and not the evidence for it, anyway) than anyone else otherwise would.  Our knowledge of biology certainly trumps heresay and myth, even if they're partially based on real events.  He thinks that varying degrees of historical evidence for places, people and events = divinity.  But that's not how it works.  Especially when the part he wants to prove - the resurrection - has the least going for it.

Your incomplete knowledge of real events causes you to undervalue the evidence for the resurrection.

If the sort of God described in the New Testament exists, there is no reason to reject the possibility of miracles as the explanation of well-attested events for which no plausible natural explanations exist. To say that we should deny Jesus' resurrection, no matter how strong the evidence, is to be biased against the possibility that this could be the very case for which we have been looking.

[Randy Carson]

Actually, you do. You need to have an explanation that is better than the resurrection; otherwise, the resurrection IS the best explanation of the facts, and knowing this will haunt you because you do not want it to be true.

So, got something?

No, I actually don't.

I don't need a theory for the origins of the universe better than 'magic pink unicorn created it' to reject that theory as implausible.

Lol. As you almost found out, there are many things that haunt me, Randy, but resurrection is not one of them.

I don't know, Randy. I'm not even convinced Jesus existed and died, because I don't have enough information to make a judgement.

But what I do know is that there hasn't been one documented case of a human being coming back to life after being dead for three days.

And based on that information and the unconvincing nature of your evidence, I reject your theory of resurrection.

A ridiculous violation of basic laws of biology is not the best explanation. Ever heard of Occam's razor?

This is just another of your beloved god of the gaps argument. [emphasis added] 'You don't have an explanation, therefore he must have risen from the dead'. Nope. Does not work that way.

SECOND REPLY (ON A DIFFERENT POINT)

First, the existence of “God of the gaps” explanations in the past no more undermines current arguments for God than discarded scientific theories and medical beliefs of the past undermine today’s science and medicine. The mistakes in each should only drive us to more careful theorizing in the future.

Second, the criticism that god is simply a way to explain unknown phenomenon commits the informal logical error known as the genetic fallacy which occurs when it is assumed that discovering how a belief originated is sufficient to explain the belief. However, it is a fallacy because it attacks the origin of a view instead of the view itself—a view which may be correct. For example, that some ancient Romans may have thought that Jupiter was responsible for their victory over the Gauls does not nullify the historical factuality of the battle or Rome’s great victory.

Third, what we already know from respected disciplines like medical science, history and psychology is precisely what renders the conclusion of Jesus’ resurrection so compelling. Conversely, these same disciplines disprove natural explanations of this event. Interestingly enough, without a workable opposing theory, the skeptic must be careful not to substitute a “naturalism of the gaps” view. This occurs when critics have little ground on which to oppose the resurrection, yet they conclude that it could not have happened (which is mere denial). Or they simply refuse to believe in spite of not having a viable counter response. We must not suspend judgment when adequate evidence is available upon which to make a decision. The resurrection challenges nature’s laws, and there does not seem to be a way to incorporate it with nature.

Fourth, it is an unjustifiable leap to proclaim that at some future point in time we will find a scientific answer for the resurrection of Jesus. If the resurrection is questioned again at some future date, Christians will research and respond. In the meantime, we should not rule out the possibility of the resurrection without a viable reason.

[Jenny A]

If the sort of God described in the New Testament exists, there is no reason to reject the possibility of miracles as the explanation of well-attested events for which no plausible natural explanations exist.

This is what we call begging the question.  

To say that we should deny Jesus' resurrection, no matter how strong the evidence, is to be biased against the possibility that this could be the very case for which we have been looking.

Who says any such thing? I say it is an unlikely claim for which truly pitiful evidence is offered. There is better evidence for alien abductions, esp, and Joseph Smith's golden tablets. And there's for from sufficient evidence far any of those things.

[Randy Carson]

No, you have enough information. What you lack is the guts to make the decision to accept Jesus.

IF jesus did exist and was crucified and rose.  Who is to say that he was not just in a coma?

There is no proof that ANYONE has ever risen from the dead.  That would require two pieces of information.  Proof they were dead in the first place and proof they were now alive.  It has NEVER been done.  You can rant and rave and hold your breath.  You can provide links to all kinds of bullshit, but there is no proof that jesus was dead and there is no proof that he rose from the dead.  The evidence that he even existed is weak at best.

Ah, the Swoon Theory.

If a half-dead Jesus, beaten and bloody from head to toe, managed to stagger back to where the apostles were in hiding, do you think that upon seeing him in this condition the Apostles would have called Him "Lord"? Or would they have called him a doctor?

Here are nine pieces of evidence that refute the swoon theory:

1. Jesus could not have survived crucifixion. Roman procedures were very careful to eliminate that possibility. Roman law even laid the death penalty on any soldier who let a capital prisoner escape in any way, including bungling a crucifixion. It was never done.
   
2. The fact that the Roman soldier did not break Jesus' legs, as he did to the other two crucified criminals (Jn 19:31-33), means that the soldier was sure Jesus was dead. Breaking the legs hastened the death so that the corpse could be taken down before the sabbath (v. 31).
   
3. John, an eyewitness, certified that he saw blood and water come from Jesus' pierced heart (Jn 19:34-35). This shows that Jesus' lungs had collapsed and he had died of asphyxiation. Any medical expert can vouch for this.
   
4. The body was totally encased in winding sheets and entombed (Jn 19:38-42).
   
5. The post-resurrection appearances convinced the disciples, even "doubting Thomas," that Jesus was gloriously alive (Jn 20:19-29). It is psychologically impossible for the disciples to have been so transformed and confident if Jesus had merely struggled out of a swoon, badly in need of a doctor. A half-dead, staggering sick man who has just had a narrow escape is not worshiped fearlessly as divine lord and conquerer of death.
   
6. How were the Roman guards at the tomb overpowered by a swooning corpse? Or by unarmed disciples? And if the disciples did it, they knowingly lied when they wrote the Gospels, and we are into the conspiracy theory, which we will refute shortly.
   
7. How could a swooning half-dead man have moved the great stone at the door of the tomb? Who moved the stone if not an angel? No one has ever answered that question. Neither the Jews nor the Romans would move it, for it was in both their interests to keep the tomb sealed: the Jews had the stone put there in the first place, and the Roman guards would be killed if they let the body "escape." The story the Jewish authorities spread, that the guards fell asleep and the disciples stole the body (Mt 28:11-15), is unbelievable. Roman guards would not fall asleep on a job like that; if they did, they would lose their lives. And even if they did fall asleep, the crowd and the effort and the noise it would have taken to move an enormous boulder would have wakened them. Furthermore, we are again into the conspiracy theory, with all its unanswerable difficulties (we'll deal with this theory in a couple days.)
   
8. If Jesus awoke from a swoon, where did he go? Think this through: you have a living body to deal with now, not a dead one. Why did it disappear? There is absolutely no data, not even any false, fantastic, imagined data, about Jesus' life after his crucifixion, in any sources, friend or foe, at any time, early or late. A man like that, with a past like that, would have left traces.
   
9. Most simply, the swoon theory necessarily turns into the conspiracy theory or the hallucination theory, for the disciples testified that Jesus did not swoon but really died and really rose.
   

[Randy Carson]

[Randy Carson]