Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[Randy Carson]

Careful analysis of the claims.

If there were any real credibility, Horus, Osiris, Zeus and all the others would still be rock stars.

But they aren't, are they?

I suppose murdering everyone who didn't follow the Christian Faith had nothing to do with that.

All that ping-pong back and forth just to build up to that zinger?

I'm underwhelmed.

[Minimalist]

And underwhelming.

[Randy Carson]

And I answered appropriately.

No, the gods themselves did not exist if they were not identified as a single creator God; they were attempts at understanding, and the charge of "God of the gaps" would rightly be applied to those efforts.

However, if and when people acknowledged a single creator of all that exists, then they were worshipping the true God and not images and idols. Muslims and Jews, for example, worship the true God even though they do not recognize the Trinity.

Throughout the course of human history, the one, true creator God has revealed Himself to mankind in various ways - which may include the performance of miracles even among those peoples who do not really know Him.

So the stories of pagan gods impregnating women so that their seed could rule on Earth is really just your god being a perv?

I did not say that all the stories are true. I said that some [legitimate] miracles may have occurred because God desires all men to come to know him.

If "stories" were simply made up "God of the gaps" fashion, that would not be action on God's part, now would it?

[Thumpalumpacus]

You get one warning to speak politely and refrain from gratuitous profanity before you go on my ignore list.

This is that warning.

What a shame those choirboys couldn't put those pedophilic priests on ignore. What a shame that those priests, while detesting verbal profanity, positively enjoyed the physical profanity of molesting young children.

And finally, what a shame that your sensitivities cause you to ignore someone for online cussing, but allow you to continue following someone who assrapes a child in real life.

Odd set of priorities you have there, Randy, m'boy.

[Jenny A]

The problem with this argument is even if you could establish your "minimal facts" , as fact, they don't point to anybody rising from the dead.

The Minimal Facts are:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Not a single one of these has to do with a person rising from the dead.

Given this set of facts, the resurrection is the best probable explanation of them, IMO.

However, you disagree. So, what is your theory about what happened?

I'll answer this too since you've asked it of me in various ways.

The short answer is:  there isn't enough evidence to know what happened.  You seem to have a problem with "We Don't Know."  Christians in general seem to have a problem with we don't know.  But when it come to questions like: what came before the Big Bang; was there really a Homer and did he write the Iliad; was there an Atlantis and what happened to it; and many many others, the answer is we don't know.

If you want to know what I think of the Jesus story I'll tell you, but it's limited and hardly certain:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher or rabbi. He was baptized by John the Baptist.  Baptism was to was away sins and was supposed to be performed by a moral superior.  That is so far from the Jesus myth that it must have happened to be included at all.  Jesus preached around Galallie which is such a backwater it's hard to believe anyone made it up.  He preached the coming of the kingdom of god on earth within a short period of time.  He had some followers though not necessarily twelve and he was opposed to some sects of Judaism namely the Sadducees and the Pharisees.  Neither were a dominant Jewish sect. He wasn't fighting "the man" just disagreeing with other schisms. 

He went to Jerusalem where he attracted some notice.  The Romans crucified him for treason because the kingdom of god on earth sounded very much like inciting the Jew to revolt from their prospective.  And indeed Jesus expected the Roman Empire to fall.

After that some followers of Jesus claimed to see him resurrected.  And they preached that the kingdom of god on earth was coming soon.

The Jews generally rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah because he was crucified.  That was Saul's opinion.  Saul had an experience of some kind that convinced him Jesus was resurrected and was the messiah.

When the kingdom of god didn't come, apologetics began.  And they've never stopped.

I give my theory about 35% probability.   So not more likely than not, just the best explanation.

I give resurrection about .0000000000000000000000000000000000001%

I give the chance that current christian doctrine about the kingdom of god on earth has much of anything to do with what Jesus actually preached about .001% chance.  I'm really sure he was an apolitical preacher.  Too much that is hard to explain any other way remains in the gospels.

[Randy Carson]

The classic theist response.  "My god is real and yours is not".  Same evidence, same stories, just a matter of preference.  As it has been said, once you truly understand why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why we reject yours.

The idea that Jesus is no different than the 2,000+ gods of ancient history who have been largely forgotten may make it easier for you to discount Christianity (without actually thinking), but it's not a legitimate argument. The alleged parallels between Jesus and other so-called gods lack any real substance.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Unless you believe that your Jesus wasn't the only performer of miracles and there have been many gods running around doing fantastic things?

Either they're all credible, or none of them are. You can't have it both ways, Randy.

That's how you slap a dumbass down -- hold him to his own standards. Good show.

[Randy Carson]

Obviously, because I think my data set is superior to yours which is incomplete.

I disagree.  While our data set is incomplete (I agree on that point), that doesn't make it inferior.  Yours is inferior as it is based neither in reality nor can you provide any facts for the data you present. Incomplete data with factual support > Complete data based on mythology and magic.

Oh, I'm sure you disagree.

That's why we're here.

[Randy Carson]

Given this set of facts, the resurrection is the best probable explanation of them, IMO.

However, you disagree. So, what is your theory about what happened?

I'll answer this too since you've asked it of me in various ways.

The short answer is:  there isn't enough evidence to know what happened.  You seem to have a problem with "We Don't Know."  Christians in general seem to have a problem with we don't know.  But when it come to questions like: what came before the Big Bang; was there really a Homer and did he write the Iliad; was there an Atlantis and what happened to it; and many many others, the answer is we don't know.

If you want to know what I think of the Jesus story I'll tell you, but it's limited and hardly certain:

Jesus was a Jewish preacher or rabbi. He was baptized by John the Baptist.  Baptism was to was away sins and was supposed to be performed by a moral superior.  That is so far from the Jesus myth that it must have happened to be included at all.  Jesus preached around Galallie which is such a backwater it's hard to believe anyone made it up.  He preached the coming of the kingdom of god on earth within a short period of time.  He had some followers though not necessarily twelve and he was opposed to some sects of Judaism namely the Sadducees and the Pharisees.  Neither were a dominant Jewish sect. He wasn't fighting "the man" just disagreeing with other schisms. 

He went to Jerusalem where he attracted some notice.  The Romans crucified him for treason because the kingdom of god on earth sounded very much like inciting the Jew to revolt from their prospective.  And indeed Jesus expected the Roman Empire to fall.

After that some followers of Jesus claimed to see him resurrected.  And they preached that the kingdom of god on earth was coming soon.

The Jews generally rejected the idea that Jesus was the messiah because he was crucified.  That was Saul's opinion.  Saul had an experience of some kind that convinced him Jesus was resurrected and was the messiah.

When the kingdom of god didn't come, apologetics began.  And they've never stopped.

I give my theory about 35% probability.   So not more likely than not, just the best explanation.

I give resurrection about .0000000000000000000000000000000000001%

I give the chance that current christian doctrine about the kingdom of god on earth has much of anything to do with what Jesus actually preached about .001% chance.  I'm really sure he was an apolitical preacher.  Too much that is hard to explain any other way remains in the gospels.

Some of what you have written is correct, Jenny, so props for that.

But I'm guessing it's been awhile since you read the NT. That's more than you would really need short-term, so while I'm reading Bart Ehrman to learn what [some] atheists think, how about you read Luke and Acts? That's more than a fair trade in terms of word count.

Waddya say?

[Thumpalumpacus]

The classic theist response.  "My god is real and yours is not".  Same evidence, same stories, just a matter of preference.  As it has been said, once you truly understand why you reject all those other gods, you will understand why we reject yours.

The idea that Jesus is no different than the 2,000+ gods of ancient history who have been largely forgotten may make it easier for you to discount Christianity (without actually thinking), but it's not a legitimate argument. The alleged parallels between Jesus and other so-called gods lack any real substance.

There's one parallel that is regnant: they all lack evidence.

It might be bullshit.  It might be horseshit. It might be elephant shit, or pigshit, or birdshit dotting the top of your brain.

But it's all shit. Take your special pleading and walk the streets for money with it ... you will definitely do better than you will on a forum filled with sharp tacks.