Proving The Resurrection By the Minimal Facts Approach

[Randy Carson]

So basically, the only substance Randy has to offer to this thread is *word salad*

Pretty tepid, EG. Pretty tepid.

[Easy Guns]

So basically, the only substance Randy has to offer to this thread is *word salad*

Pretty tepid, EG. Pretty tepid.

You didn't add any substance to the argument whatsoever except to continue to repeat the same talking points over again. You failed to address my arguments in any fashion.

As far as I'm concerned your proofs are completely invalid and with no reasonable argument I have no choice but to settle with that conclusion.

[The Valkyrie]

Even though I pretty much disagree with everything Randy types, you have to give him credit for trying.

It's a lot better than, "It happened because the bible said it happened. The Bible is the word of god, because the Bible says it is!"

[Minimalist]

Oh, and the fact that some people were around when Jesus, James, John, Peter and Paul were actually alive...people who wrote stuff down.

Liar.

[Randy Carson]

Pretty tepid, EG. Pretty tepid.

You didn't add any substance to the argument whatsoever except to continue to repeat the same talking points over again. You failed to address my arguments in any fashion.

As far as I'm concerned your proofs are completely invalid and with no reasonable argument I have no choice but to settle with that conclusion.

Jesus Mythers are idiots, and both theists and atheists alike know this.

Now that we have that out of the way...

If you have any opposing arguments you wish to make regarding any of the material I have presented, please make your case in response to the appropriate post(s):

Post 1 - My OP
Post 65 - Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion
Post 148 - Fact 2: Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
Post 283 - Fact 3: Paul, the enemy of the Church, was suddenly converted
Post 460 - Fact 4: James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly converted.
Coming Soon - Fact 5: Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Thanks.

[Catholic_Lady]

You didn't add any substance to the argument whatsoever except to continue to repeat the same talking points over again. You failed to address my arguments in any fashion.

As far as I'm concerned your proofs are completely invalid and with no reasonable argument I have no choice but to settle with that conclusion.

Jesus Mythers are idiots, and both theists and atheists alike know this.

Now that we have that out of the way...

If you have any opposing arguments you wish to make regarding any of the material I have presented, please make your case in response to the appropriate post(s):

Post 1 - My OP
Post 65 - Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion
Post 148 - Fact 2: Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
Post 283 - Fact 3: Paul, the enemy of the Church, was suddenly converted
Post 460 - Fact 4: James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly converted.
Coming Soon - Fact 5: Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

Thanks.

Some interesting stuff I had never thought of before, Randy. Thanks!

[Randy Carson]

Even though I pretty much disagree with everything Randy types, you have to give him credit for trying.

It's a lot better than, "It happened because the bible said it happened.  The Bible is the word of god, because the Bible says it is!"

Some interesting stuff I had never thought of before, Randy. Thanks!

[Randy Carson]

As far as I'm concerned your proofs are completely invalid and with no reasonable argument I have no choice but to settle with that conclusion.

Why?

I've quoted all sorts of non-biblical sources in support of my four facts, so far. And I've offered some guidance as to why they matter.

You've quoted NO ONE and offered no evidence. Just opinions and assertions...along with the usual atheist hubris and ill-will (which is to be expected, of course).

Why should anyone believe that the minimal facts are not valid based on the arguments and evidence that you have presented thus far?

[IATIA]

Post 65 - Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion

You have yet to prove that jesus died and not just gone comatose so, not a fact.

[Randy Carson]

Post 65 - Fact 1: Jesus died by crucifixion

You have yet to prove that jesus died and not just gone comatose so, not a fact.

I covered this in post #388 - repeated (and expanded) here for your convenience:

In 1835, David Strauss definitively refuted the Swoon Theory, and it has never been taken seriously since. Strauss argued that if a half-dead Jesus, beaten and bloody from head to toe, managed to stagger back to where the apostles were in hiding, he would not have inspired his disciples to proclaim that He was GOD - the Lord of Life - who had triumphed over the grave. After suffering all of the abuse, with all the catastrophic blood loss and trauma, he would have looked so pitiful that the disciples would never have hailed him as the victorious conqueror of death; they would have felt sorry for him and tried to nurse him back to health.

Do you honestly think that upon seeing him in this horrible condition the Apostles would have called Him, "Lord"? Or would they have called him a doctor?

So, it's preposterous to think that if Jesus had appeared to them in that condition, his disciples would have been prompted to start a world-wide movement based on the hope that someday they, too, would have a resurrection body just like his.

Here are nine pieces of evidence that refute the swoon theory:

1. Jesus could not have survived crucifixion. Roman procedures were very careful to eliminate that possibility. Roman law even laid the death penalty on any soldier who let a capital prisoner escape in any way, including bungling a crucifixion. It was never done.
   
2. The fact that the Roman soldier did not break Jesus' legs, as he did to the other two crucified criminals (Jn 19:31-33), means that the soldier was sure Jesus was dead. Breaking the legs hastened the death so that the corpse could be taken down before the sabbath (v. 31).
   John, an eyewitness, certified that he saw blood and water come from Jesus' pierced heart (Jn 19:34-35). This shows that Jesus' lungs had collapsed and he had died of asphyxiation. Any medical expert can vouch for this.
   
3. The body was totally encased in winding sheets and entombed (Jn 19:38-42).
   
4. The post-resurrection appearances convinced the disciples, even "doubting Thomas," that Jesus was gloriously alive (Jn 20:19-29). It is psychologically impossible for the disciples to have been so transformed and confident if Jesus had merely struggled out of a swoon, badly in need of a doctor. A half-dead, staggering sick man who has just had a narrow escape is not worshiped fearlessly as divine lord and conquerer of death.
   
5. How were the Roman guards at the tomb overpowered by a swooning corpse? Or by unarmed disciples? And if the disciples did it, they knowingly lied when they wrote the Gospels, and we are into the conspiracy theory, which we will refute shortly.
   
6. How could a swooning half-dead man have moved the great stone at the door of the tomb? Who moved the stone if not an angel? No one has ever answered that question. Neither the Jews nor the Romans would move it, for it was in both their interests to keep the tomb sealed: the Jews had the stone put there in the first place, and the Roman guards would be killed if they let the body "escape." The story the Jewish authorities spread, that the guards fell asleep and the disciples stole the body (Mt 28:11-15), is unbelievable. Roman guards would not fall asleep on a job like that; if they did, they would lose their lives. And even if they did fall asleep, the crowd and the effort and the noise it would have taken to move an enormous boulder would have wakened them. Furthermore, we are again into the conspiracy theory, with all its unanswerable difficulties (we'll deal with this theory in a couple days.)
   
7. If Jesus awoke from a swoon, where did he go? Think this through: you have a living body to deal with now, not a dead one. Why did it disappear? There is absolutely no data, not even any false, fantastic, imagined data, about Jesus' life after his crucifixion, in any sources, friend or foe, at any time, early or late. A man like that, with a past like that, would have left traces.
   
8. Most simply, the swoon theory necessarily turns into the conspiracy theory or the hallucination theory, for the disciples testified that Jesus did not swoon but really died and really rose.
   

Hope this helps.