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possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
#11
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
(June 28, 2015 at 5:17 am)Darinda Wrote: It does not take much effort to provoke muslims just draw a cartoon and they all go ape shit.

You don't really need to go that far.
All you need, in order to piss off muslims, is to - you know - not be a muslim.
And even if you are one - you'd better be the "right" kind...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#12
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
To bring this thread back on topic, the Quran has a couple of interesting verses. Well I say a couple but I've found a third interesting verse.

Quran 3:96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:

Quran 2:127 And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing.

So the claim is Bakka is where the Kaaba is a allegedly Bakkah is a name for Mecca and Abraham went to the place where Mecca is today. So basically, Abraham traveled many hundreds of miles to the southern Near East to build a strange structure and people have gone for pilgrimage there ever since. There's so much wrong with this I don't know where ti begin. Allah is making Abraham do crazy things again, because apparently asking him to kill his own son wasn't enough.

There is zero evidence for people have gone to the Kaaba since the time of Abraham, whenever that was. The Kaaba didn't exist until shortly before the time of Muhammad. Muhammad apparently reclaimed the Kaaba from the Pagans because at an unspecified time between the lives of Abraham and Muhammad Pagans began to use the Kaaba for their own nefarious purposes.

You have to be a special kind of stupid to think that Bakkah from the Bible is Mecca. For a start, there a place called Bakkah on Israel's northern frontier of course (Bekaa Valley) which is of course a more plausible candidate than a distant city in the middle of, quite literally, nowhere. Sure, Mecca is in as valley - but there are no Balsam trees and there is no proof of Abraham having built the Kaaba.

This idea that Mecca was somehow this major hub of civilization is ridiculous. It's in the middle of the desert, far, far away from anything important to the people of Ancient Times, such the ocean/sea or rivers. So I will reiterate my previous link about the changing direction of the Qibla: http://nabataea.net/joke.html

Interestingly, the religion of Abraham is said to be Hanif, not a Jew, and all of the other so-called prophets before Muhammad were Hanif. I guess the texts of the Hanif religion are those uncorrupted versions of the Old and New Testament (that supposedly agree with the Quran), which Muhammadans love yell about, but have somehow been lost without any evidence that they every actually existed. Convenient that - it sounds as if such texts never actually existed.  I don't want to get into a discussion about the accuracy of the Bible here but there is zero evidence that any Judeo-Christian text was ever in agreement with the Quran.

Prior to Muhammad's religion the term "Hanif" is non-existent. I don't see any evidence for such as religion other than the list of names we find in the Muhammadan texts. Obviously some people will attempt twist history for their own agenda.

Quran 3:95 Say: "Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."

Quran 3:95 mentions the "religion of Abraham" but doesn't say what exactly this religion is. The Tafsir writers have therefore assumed the religion of Abraham. Al-Jalalayn claims Abraham was Hanif but provides no positive evidence. Ibn ‘Abbâs simply asserts that Abraham was neither Jewish or Christian and does not elaborate further on his religion.

http://www.quranx.com/Tafsirs/3.95

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#13
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
(June 25, 2015 at 12:33 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote:
Quote:I've been mulling over a theory lately, could it be that Islam has it's origins what would now be considered Syria/Lebanon?

Didn't Tom Holland write an entire book on this very subject? If I remember rightly, In The Shadow of the Sword is the book that discusses this. Also, you can watch a documentary featuring him, Islam - The Untold Story, by visiting the below link.

https://vimeo.com/79051482
(in the description of the video you can find links to a talk he did about the documentary)

 I've watched Islam - The Untold Story, I do recall them mentioning Jordan, but not Syria or Lebanon. 

I may very well have to check out the book you have mentioned. I was unaware that Lebanon and Syria were being taken seriously by scholars in their quest for a historical Muhammad. I think the clues will lie in the records from that era, if they haven't been destroyed by some pious twat centuries ago. I do hope that there's a Nag Hammadi style library of proto-Islamic literature out there somewhere that mentions this very thing.
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,

"Behold Plato's man!"






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#14
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
(June 25, 2015 at 12:36 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I suggest you read Robert Spencer's "Did Mohammed Exist?"  The muslims go birdshit over it but they go birdshit over almost everything so that is no barrier.

There is evidence for the existence of a man who the character of Muhammad was based on in the text of Doctrina Jacobi written in Palestine between 634 and 640, which I will quote below. However I do believe the character of Muhammad has been very heavily mythologized. Not to mention that the Sira the earliest biographies of Muhammad were written down around one to two centuries after his supposed death.

Quote: When the candidatus [that is, a member of the Byzantine imperial guard] was killed by the Saracens [Sarakenoi], I was at Caesarea and I set off by boat to Sykamina. People were saying "the candidatus has been killed," and we Jews were overjoyed. And they were saying that the prophet had appeared, coming with the Saracens, and that he was proclaiming the advent of the anointed one, the Christ who was to come.

    I, having arrived at Sykamina, stopped by a certain old man well-versed in scriptures, and I said to him: "What can you tell me about the prophet who has appeared with the Saracens?" He replied, groaning deeply: "He is false, for the prophets do not come armed with a sword. Truly they are works of anarchy being committed today and I fear that the first Christ to come, whom the Christians worship, was the one sent by God and we instead are preparing to receive the Antichrist. Indeed, Isaiah said that the Jews would retain a perverted and hardened heart until all the earth should be devastated. But you go, master Abraham, and find out about the prophet who has appeared."

    So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible [i.e., not credible].

I would recommend reading the In the Shadow of the Sword by Tom Holland about a credible hypothesis about the real origins of Islam. This hypothesis is supported strongly by what historic evidence we have and answers a lot more questions about how Islam emerged, than the traditional Islamic accounts do.
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#15
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
(June 28, 2015 at 7:28 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Prior to Muhammad's religion the term "Hanif" is non-existent. I don't see any evidence for such as religion other than the list of names we find in the Muhammadan texts. Obviously some people will attempt twist history for their own agenda.

Quran 3:95 Say: "Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."

Quran 3:95 mentions the "religion of Abraham" but doesn't say what exactly this religion is. The Tafsir writers have therefore assumed the religion of Abraham. Al-Jalalayn claims Abraham was Hanif but provides no positive evidence. Ibn ‘Abbâs simply asserts that Abraham was neither Jewish or Christian and does not elaborate further on his religion.

http://www.quranx.com/Tafsirs/3.95

The term hanif is said to be derived from the Syriac word hanpa or hanep

http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr...=khabouris

this means heathen, and is usually referring to non-believers or pagans. 

I find it odd that Muhammad would pick such a word to refer to Abraham, maybe he thought Abraham was an atheist? 
Smile
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,

"Behold Plato's man!"






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#16
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
Hey, Just. 

No muslim in his right mind (admittedly a small sample) would use the Doctrina Jacobi.  All it gives them is an alleged appearance of a "prophet" among the Saracens, which was a Greco-Roman term for any one from Arabia but two years after he supposedly died and flew up to fucking heaven or something.


Quote:So I, Abraham, inquired and heard from those who had met him that there was no truth to be found in the so-called prophet, only the shedding of men's blood. He says also that he has the keys of paradise, which is incredible [i.e., not credible].

That line could get copious amounts of rocks thrown at your head...which seems to be the way they handle dissent.
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#17
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
Psychonaut, thank you for your insight. Hanif was always an odd word for me. Pagan =/= Islam. And the burden of proof is on the Muhammadans to prove that Israelites did not drink alcohol. If, as is claimed, there was a lost version of the Bible which agreed with the Quran then it should follow that Jews would not have drunk alcohol.

Petra is in Jordan and was the Qibla of many early Mosques. The reason I mentioned Lebanon is the Valley of Bakka, because Bakka is used in the Quran to refer to Mecca once or twice.

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#18
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
(August 4, 2015 at 6:07 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Psychonaut, thank you for your insight. Hanif was always an odd word for me. Pagan =/= Islam. And the burden of proof is on the Muhammadans to prove that Israelites did not drink alcohol. If, as is claimed, there was a lost version of the Bible which agreed with the Quran then it should follow that Jews would not have drunk alcohol.

Petra is in Jordan and was the Qibla of many early Mosques. The reason I mentioned Lebanon is the Valley of Bakka, because Bakka is used in the Quran to refer to Mecca once or twice.

There are mixed views on alcohol throughout the bible, which as you probably know, shows in the quran. 
like in quran 16:67, where the date, which provides people with strong drink, meaning alcohol, is a sign from god, but in 5:90, it is the handiwork of satan. 

Regarding Lebanon, The Beqaa was exactly what got me thinking about bakka as originally just being the beqaa valley. It's got the agricultural framework to be appropriate for where the quran is referring to. I'm not fluent with the Fus7ah, so I don't know why mekka and bekka is written as makkat and bakkat. The t alludes me completely, but it may be just an archaic letter that has been dropped over time, much like how aalam (meaning pen) is pronounced in the fus7ah as qalam. I may be way off though.
Plato had defined Man as an animal, biped and featherless, and was applauded. Diogenes plucked a fowl and brought it into the lecture room with the words,

"Behold Plato's man!"






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#19
RE: possible origins of islam (higher criticism scholars/ history nuts welcome)
Check this out.

http://www.searchformecca.com/Mecca%20Question.pdf



Quote:While Muslims are adamant that Mecca was the center of the trade route, modern historians give us a different picture. Dr.
Patricia Crone tells us:

“Mecca was a barren place, and barren places do not make natural halts, and
least of all when they are found at a short distance from famously green environments. Why should caravans have made a steep descent to the barren lands of Mecca when they could have stopped at Ta’if?
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