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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 12, 2015 at 10:49 pm
(This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 10:59 pm by Excited Penguin.)
(July 12, 2015 at 10:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'd be interested to know how people's answers would change in the following scenario:
Imagine religion still exists, but it somehow does no harm anymore, in any real way. Obviously it still involves some irrational thinking to believe in it, but it's not been forced on anyone anymore (especially children) and any other negative factor you can think of has been neutralised. It's a secular masterpiece.
Would you still consider yourself "against" religion (further to it being irrational) and if so, to what degree?
Personally I'd be very happy, in fact ecstatic, with this scenario and I wouldn't be against it at all. I'd still encourage more rational thought of course, and keep a beady eye on things.
I just realised this may well be a loaded/obvious question! Oh well, discussion welcome 
By your own premise religion would still be harmful. There is no possible universe, by my reasoning, in which irrational thinking would be harmless. Just because we can't actually understand the degree to which a brain-washed zombie can fuck up society just by using his impotent reasoning, it doesn't mean the problem's not there.
It's kind of like this: The philosopher Peter Unger has made a persuasive case that a single dollar spent on anything but the absolute essentials of our survival is a dollar that has some starving child’s blood on it.*
That's exactly the way a religious person can fuck up society, I think. He invests time and money in a ridiculously unproductive thing. And if that's not enough, the way his thinking changes due to this can be extremely dangerous. A theist must basically think everything is going to be ok because God - he is implictly irresponsible, no matter what his holy book tells him to do. He can't possibly think he can contribute something to change- his universe is a very confined one; it's all there, life, heaven, sins, angels, all that stuff. He doesn't have to worry about understanding the world - it has already been all explained to him. How can this type of thinking ever be harmless?! Can you imagine what kind of society we would be living in if the majority actually believed this kind of nonsense? Oh, shit, what am I saying, I guess we are living in that kind of society!
*Sam Harris, The End Of Faith, Leftist Unreason and the Strange Case of Noam Chomsky
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 12, 2015 at 11:03 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 10:41 pm)robvalue Wrote: I'd be interested to know how people's answers would change in the following scenario:
Imagine religion still exists, but it somehow does no harm anymore, in any real way. Obviously it still involves some irrational thinking to believe in it, but it's not been forced on anyone anymore (especially children) and any other negative factor you can think of has been neutralised. It's a secular masterpiece.
Would you still consider yourself "against" religion (further to it being irrational) and if so, to what degree?
Personally I'd be very happy, in fact ecstatic, with this scenario and I wouldn't be against it at all. I'd still encourage more rational thought of course, and keep a beady eye on things.
I just realised this may well be a loaded/obvious question! Oh well, discussion welcome
I think your story is self-contradictory. If it is irrational, it encourages irrationality. That is going to mean it is harmful. I really want you to read William Kingdon Clifford's essay "The Will to Believe":
http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm
I will be very happy to discuss it with you. If you want a new thread on it, please either create it, or ask me via PM to do so.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 2:27 am
Anti-Theist/ Militant atheist.
"God" needs to die.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am by Excited Penguin.)
(July 13, 2015 at 2:27 am)Spooky Wrote: Anti-Theist/ Militant atheist.
"God" needs to die.
How do you propose we kill him?
Can you imagine if he was real and we could put him on trial for everything shitty he ever did in the universe ? =DDD
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 3:03 am
(July 12, 2015 at 10:49 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: There is no possible universe, by my reasoning, in which irrational thinking would be harmless.
Clearly not an artist or musician here.
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 3:05 am
(July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: (July 13, 2015 at 2:27 am)Spooky Wrote: Anti-Theist/ Militant atheist.
"God" needs to die.
How do you propose we kill him?
Can you imagine if he was real and we could put him on trial for everything shitty he ever did in the universe ? =DDD
Education and logic will eventually kill religion.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 3:07 am
(This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 3:08 am by Excited Penguin.)
(July 13, 2015 at 3:05 am)Spooky Wrote: (July 13, 2015 at 2:37 am)excitedpenguin Wrote: How do you propose we kill him?
Can you imagine if he was real and we could put him on trial for everything shitty he ever did in the universe ? =DDD
Education and logic will eventually kill religion.
Why don't you do more about it? Why do you expect it will all resolve itself? Education and logic are not things that exists in and of themselves, you know. We, as humans, have to use those tools to dispel religion.
(July 13, 2015 at 3:03 am)Parkers Tan Wrote: (July 12, 2015 at 10:49 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote: There is no possible universe, by my reasoning, in which irrational thinking would be harmless.
Clearly not an artist or musician here.
I don't know what you mean by that.
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 3:17 am
Sadly it is a fine line we must walk. Religion won't go quietly.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 3:40 am
(July 13, 2015 at 3:17 am)Spooky Wrote: Sadly it is a fine line we must walk. Religion won't go quietly. Maybe you should try thinking of religion in terms of human beings and try communicating more with the latter. Religion isn't anything at all without it's believers, after all.
We should find a common language with religious people, not alienate them. I find that many of them believe in the same kind of reality we do, we just can't see that because we're at each others' throats all of the time. I think religious people mean by God the same thing we mean by reality, really. So it's all just semantics. We should just add God in the dictionary as a synonym for universe or for reality if that will make them happy. And then we should all concentrate on solving death and illness and then on surviving the sun's going out and then on saving the universe from ending.
Then and only then you could say you don't live for nothing!
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RE: Atheist vs Anti-theist
July 13, 2015 at 4:02 am
Regardless of the opinion of any other human, I don't live for nothing. Until your life has been threatened as many times as mine has, and you've had the sort of reflection that goes along with it, you're not even remotely qualified to comment on what I live for.
I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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