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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 4:26 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 4:32 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Opinions are capable of having a truth value. Conceding that the various competing moral systems contain opinion is not conceding that they have no truth value, essentially or otherwise.
I'm of the opinion that green left handed widgets are the most evil thing in existence, what say you? Can we assign a truth value to my moral claim?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 4:48 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 4:49 pm by Mudhammam.)
(July 18, 2015 at 4:26 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Opinions are capable of having a truth value. Conceding that the various competing moral systems contain opinion is not conceding that they have no truth value, essentially or otherwise.
I'm of the opinion that green left handed widgets are the most evil thing in existence, what say you? Can we assign a truth value to my moral claim? I would call that a belief, not an opinion, if it purports to be a statement that is true, rather than merely a claim about personal taste. If someone else's belief is in contradiction with it, theirs must be false, and then we are not speaking of relativism.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 4:50 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 4:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Okay, I fear that we're creating semantic distinctions rather than actionable ones, but I suppose that I accept that your opinion/belief (which one is this?) on the matter has a truth value, and that we could determine what that truth value was if we investigated it further. : shrugs :
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 4:57 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 4:58 pm by Mudhammam.)
(July 18, 2015 at 4:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Okay, I fear that we're creating semantic distinctions rather than actionable ones, but I suppose that I accept that your opinion/belief (which one is this?) on the matter has a truth value, and that we could determine what that truth value was if we investigated it further. : shrugs : I BELIEVE there is an actionable distinction unless you're saying that statements like "I think that chocolate ice cream is the best flavor in the world" and "I think kicking babies in the face is okay to do" contain equal truth value. If not, I would distinguish the former as an opinion, i.e. of no truth value, and the latter a belief, of truth value.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:00 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 5:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The difference between a belief and an opinion that allows one to have a truth value and prevents the other would be what? Is it impossible for me to hold an opinion that is demonstrably untrue? Doesn't seem to be. What is the actionable distinction? -and since we've decided that beliefs can have truth values, then aren't "beliefs" about human rights kosher for you? So, if I said that morality wasn't comprised of differing opinions, but different beliefs....that's all well and good. Right?
Problem solved. I see very little difference between beliefs and opinions in this context, either works for me. But if you -need- the one, I can give it to you. How does this alteration change the field?
"Morality is comprised of -opinions-"
"Morality is comprised of -beliefs-"
....................?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:04 pm
(July 18, 2015 at 5:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The difference between a belief and an opinion that allows one to have a truth value and prevents the other would be what? What is the actionable distinction? The level of commitment one feels to the proposition because they believe the other to really be wrong, rather than simply disagreeing for reasons that are entirely arbitrary.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:07 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 5:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Opinions need to be arbitrary? News to me...beliefs can't be? News to me. But, as before, it hardly matters, we're just going to use different terms to discuss the same relationship aren't we?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:07 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 5:08 pm by Mudhammam.)
(July 18, 2015 at 5:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: "Morality is comprised of -opinions-"
"Morality is comprised of -beliefs-"
....................? As I see it, the first is reducible to moral nihilism --- statements that purport to be true with regards to morality are meaningless. The second means that some beliefs MUST be truly wrong, though perhaps more or less than others.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:09 pm
(This post was last modified: July 18, 2015 at 5:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I;m sure you could reduce a great deal to moral nihilism, if you set your heart on it, but since -I'm- not invoking any moral nihilism in using -either- term,........meh. Both of us feel that moral claims -whatever we choose to call them- can have a truth value assigned, yes?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: What Human Rights?
July 18, 2015 at 5:12 pm
I don't know where I presently stand on that question really... but are you saying opinions can be wrong? Is my opinion that the movie San Andreas was garbage wrong?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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