Honest Question to Atheists - Best Argument?

[popsthebuilder]

To answer the OP, no, I haven't encountered a compelling argument because Christianity actually hinges on two premises:

1. That the Christian god, and everything attached to it (most notably Jesus as a divine being) existed.
2. That they warrant worship if 1 is true.

1 is easy to refute.  There's no valid evidence of the divine.  We've had many threads in this sub-forum that try to argue for the divine, some going well over 100 pages, but ultimately the 'proof' rests on the historicity of an actual Jesus (which seems to be up in the air, but let's go with it for argument's sake) and a bunch of tertiary sources that really only provide context for what certain groups of Middle Eastern people believed in at the time.  Those sources are all presented as "Here's what they believed, and here's proof that they believed it, and perhaps here's proof that some of the places/names/events existed/happened" but none of them then conclude with "therefore, their beliefs are validated."  Because they can't be.  And, let's not forget that the bible cannot be used to verify itself.

Jesus may have existed.  But his existence isn't evidence of his divinity, just like Gautama Buddha's existence isn't evidence of Nirvana.  Archaeological evidence doesn't imply the divine.

2 is a matter of ethics.  Christians seem to worship god out of a weird mix of love and fear, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny either.  The god of the OT is an asshole.  NT Jesus isn't much better since his story introduces hell.  There's also reprehensible things like Original Sin, the necessity of a blood sacrifice by proxy to clear it, and whatnot.  Christians tend to defend these bad and often contradictory things by invoking the "mysterious ways/how can you, a finite being, judge the plans of an infinite god?" appeal to ignorance, but that's hardly compelling since it's utterly irrational.  Asserting that everything you do is good does not make it so.  Nor does the threat of omnipotence.  Might doesn't make right.

Christianity's hook is based on a psychological fear of authority.  Literally the fear of a father figure.  "What if you're wrong?" is really an implied "Wait until your father gets home and sees what you've done!"  But, here's the thing: I'm not a child any longer.  Threats of punishment for not adhering to arbitrary and, frankly, silly rules aren't going to affect me.  Especially when the purported punishment is eternal, vaguely defined torture for finite 'crimes'.

So far, nothing I've encountered satisfactorily addresses the issues I have with both premises.

Premise is exactly all that is. How said anything about Christianity? Christians, for the most part, like you, can't really grasp the concept.

[popsthebuilder]

The arguments for god are never compelling because they never lead to god. God is just plugged into the argument and given the attributes needed to fulfill the premises.

The only way to really get to an understanding that all is one is to have faith in creation.

[popsthebuilder]

I wonder if I should resurrect my "define God" thread because I don't think anyone has a clue what they are worshipping!

I do.

[popsthebuilder]

By their standards, they should be worshipping Satan. The Devil is lying to them and saying it is god. By worshipping Satan, at least they would not have to defend the evils their present god has done.

Wow. Satan is the opposite of creation and is responsible for all negative things so how would that work?

[popsthebuilder]

Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

I just saw this thread, and did not want to read 12 pages so if someone already gave this reply, my apologies.

The answer is no.  Quite the opposite in fact.  It seems that ever since about age 10 or 12, everything has driven me away from belief.  Slowly but surely.

I doubt myself a lot, but I no longer see how the biblical God is even possible.

Being pulled away from the truth is exactly what deception wants.

[popsthebuilder]

Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

I was a Christian for 25 years and have that much indoctrination that I've had to sort through. It all made sense when I was a Christian.

As you asked, I won't dismiss your question as idiotic, however, I will take note that it assumes that Christianity and atheism are the only parameters. That's a question I had to deal with. Is atheism the only alternative to Christianity and If I can't embrace atheism wholesale does that enjoin me to return to Christianity?

As I have said elsewhere, one cannot prove the existence of the Christian god with arguments. If god doesn't actually show himself, for a Christian to come up with an irrefutable argument for his existence is like making potato salad with every ingredient except potatoes. The sine qua non of god is god.

No God can be proven with science alone.

[popsthebuilder]

Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

I was a Christian for 25 years and have that much indoctrination that I've had to sort through. It all made sense when I was a Christian.

As you asked, I won't dismiss your question as idiotic, however, I will take note that it assumes that Christianity and atheism are the only parameters. That's a question I had to deal with. Is atheism the only alternative to Christianity and If I can't embrace atheism wholesale does that enjoin me to return to Christianity?

As I have said elsewhere, one cannot prove the existence of the Christian god with arguments. If god doesn't actually show himself, for a Christian to come up with an irrefutable argument for his existence is like making potato salad with every ingredient except potatoes. The sine qua non of god is god.

Science can't prove anything past the physical and obviously observable.

[pocaracas]

Pyrrho,

So our ancestors where savage. That doesn't mean the ones who where truthful with themselves where somehow deceitful with others. They had a selfless view for good. They were still human though.

How can I refute texts that I haven't read? I know about the NT even though i haven't really read it, but I don't assume anything about any other texts. Basically if the text says that God is a positive thing, and that there is only one God, then I'm interested in it. Time is limited though, and the religions of highest influence are my primary goal.

You can continue to deny every plausable claim I make I you want. Free will.

(my bold)

Now there's a nice argumentum ad populum, if I ever saw one.

[Tiberius]

Has there ever been a Christian argument, or something a Christian said, that made you, for even a split second, question whether your current atheistic stance is right?

Even if the argument turned out to be completely fabricated or disprovable, did it at the very least draw you closer to believing the Bible is God's Word and all that such a belief entails?

If not, has there ever been an argument that you didn't know how to answer, or that surprised you  against your expectations?

Not looking for "All Christian arguments are idiotic" replies. This is an honest question.

Not really an argument I've heard specifically from a Christian, but some times I find myself wondering whether there should be some degree of truth to a belief that has managed to last thousands of years and gain so many followers. Then I remember that (a) there are religions with comparable numbers of followers (Hinduism for example), and (b) that when these religions started, people weren't as smart / didn't do as much critical thinking as we do now, and even today all sorts of people are taken in by plainly ridiculous claims.

Personally, I think Jesus (or someone whom the Biblical Jesus was based off) in all likelihood existed in some form. He was probably a nice guy and said some nice things about how people should treat each other. I'm not sure whether he ever claimed to be the son of God, but it's entirely possible he did. I find it more likely that he was a philosopher who was martyred and then people just added all the magic after the fact.

[Rhondazvous]

I was a Christian for 25 years and have that much indoctrination that I've had to sort through.  It all made sense when I was a Christian.

As you asked, I won't dismiss your question as idiotic, however, I will take note that it assumes that Christianity and atheism are the only parameters. That's a question I had to deal with. Is atheism the only alternative to Christianity and If I can't embrace atheism wholesale does that enjoin me to return to Christianity?

As I have said elsewhere, one cannot prove the existence of the Christian god with arguments. If god doesn't actually show himself, for a Christian to come up with an irrefutable argument for his existence is like making potato salad with every ingredient except potatoes. The sine qua non of god is god.

No God can be proven with science alone.

You say "science alone." But do you even have that?

If you approach the world with faith you will interpret everything in a way that supports your faith. Science doesn't do that. Science doubts its own findings unless and until those findings prove themselves through test and repetition.

But again, no man should have to prove the existence of an omnipresent god, be he Yahweh or whoever.