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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 7:57 am
(August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation?
This was in the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz, I expect?
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 7:59 am
(August 20, 2015 at 7:57 am)Kaninchen Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation?
This was in the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz, I expect?
Actually, it wasn't...a fact which upset his mother who always said he should have been a doctor.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2015 at 8:07 am by Kaninchen.)
(August 20, 2015 at 7:59 am)Randy Carson Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:57 am)Kaninchen Wrote: This was in the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz, I expect?
Actually, it wasn't...a fact which upset his mother who always said he should have been a doctor.
He'd have needed '-ics ', '-istry' and an '-ology' for that so he had to make do with writing fiction instead.
The gods did not reveal, from the beginning,
All things to us, but in the course of time
Through seeking we may learn and know things better.
These things are, we conjecture, like the truth.
But as for certain truth, no man has known it,
Nor shall he know it, neither of the gods
Nor yet of all the things of which I speak.
And even if by chance he were to utter
The final truth, he would himself not know it:
For all is but a woven web of guesses.
Xenophanes
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am
(August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Why? What was his motivation?
Possibly the same as David Koresh's motivations. Who knows?
The conviction of his beliefs say absolutely nothing about the veracity of his beliefs.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 10:07 am
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2015 at 10:08 am by Homeless Nutter.)
(August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation?
Uhm... How about this - he had a stroke, which caused him to lose his sight, as well as some of his mental facilities. In other words - HE WENT NUTS, A-DUH!
Or perhaps your explanation makes more sense - god chose him to spread his teaching and in order for him to do a good job... made him blind (???)... 
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation? In Acts we are told that after his conversion, Paul went to Jerusalem and met with all the disciples and went on an evangelism spree. However, in Galatians, Paul gives a sworn affidavit that none of that ever happened. He says he did not make it to Jerusalem until 3 years later and only met John and a few others but the disciples never saw his face. What difference does it make what his motivations were if his whole story was doctored by writers who couldn't agree about what happened?
This is why it's important to know about Bible contradictions so we can identify the cherry pickers and quasi-arguments.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire
Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 11:21 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2015 at 11:22 pm by Randy Carson.)
(August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am)Cato Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Why? What was his motivation?
Possibly the same as David Koresh's motivations. Who knows?
The conviction of his beliefs say absolutely nothing about the veracity of his beliefs.
Who knows? Well, anyone who has read his letters, actually.
Paul was transformed from chief persecutor of the Church to its greatest proponent.
How did that happen?
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 11:24 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2015 at 11:24 pm by Randy Carson.)
(August 20, 2015 at 10:07 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation?
Uhm... How about this - he had a stroke, which caused him to lose his sight, as well as some of his mental facilities. In other words - HE WENT NUTS, A-DUH!
Or perhaps your explanation makes more sense - god chose him to spread his teaching and in order for him to do a good job... made him blind (???)...
Well, that's possible. But is it probable?
Tell you what...you find some respected scholars who hold this "Stroke Theory", and we can consider their arguments, okay?
In the meantime, there are still three other "Minimal Facts" that are not accounted for by Paul's stroke...
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 20, 2015 at 11:39 pm
(August 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation? In Acts we are told that after his conversion, Paul went to Jerusalem and met with all the disciples and went on an evangelism spree. However, in Galatians, Paul gives a sworn affidavit that none of that ever happened. He says he did not make it to Jerusalem until 3 years later and only met John and a few others but the disciples never saw his face. What difference does it make what his motivations were if his whole story was doctored by writers who couldn't agree about what happened?
This is why it's important to know about Bible contradictions so we can identify the cherry pickers and quasi-arguments.
Damascus > Arabia > Jerusalem
Luke does not mention the three-year sojourn in Arabia; Paul does. But Luke doesn't say that Paul went straight from Damascus to Jerusalem, either.
Don't dodge the question; What did Paul have to gain by giving up a promising career among the Pharisees and joining the fledgling Christians?
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RE: Evidence: The Gathering
August 21, 2015 at 1:41 am
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2015 at 1:42 am by Randy Carson.)
(August 20, 2015 at 6:57 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: (August 20, 2015 at 7:49 am)Randy Carson Wrote: Paul was a young scholar moving rapidly up the chain of command within the ranks of the Pharisees. His future in Jerusalem was assured.
And then he threw it all away to join the very group he had been persecuting?
Why? What was his motivation? In Acts we are told that after his conversion, Paul went to Jerusalem and met with all the disciples and went on an evangelism spree. However, in Galatians, Paul gives a sworn affidavit that none of that ever happened. He says he did not make it to Jerusalem until 3 years later and only met John and a few others but the disciples never saw his face. What difference does it make what his motivations were if his whole story was doctored by writers who couldn't agree about what happened?
This is why it's important to know about Bible contradictions so we can identify the cherry pickers and quasi-arguments.
Paul wrote:
Quote:17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. 18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas (Peter) and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.
So, apparently, after the persecution broke out against the Church, the apostles were scattered such that Paul only met Peter and James, the Lord's brother, in Jerusalem three years later. He went from Damascus > Arabia > Jerusalem.
Luke does not mention the three-year sojourn in Arabia; Paul does. But Luke doesn't say that Paul went straight from Damascus to Jerusalem, either. He wrote:
Quote:Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.
23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.
26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews,[a] but they tried to kill him. 30 When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
I highlighted the passage in blue to show the gap. YOU contend that Luke has Paul going straight from Damascus to Jerusalem in vv 25-26. But this is not what Luke wrote. Paul never wrote of his experience in Arabia, and Luke is silent about it, also. We don't know what happened there, but Paul came back a changed man...and one who had learned much from the Lord apparently, because he says that he did not receive his gospel from "any man, but from the Lord." He also speaks of visions and being caught up to heaven, so maybe this occurred during this extended retreat in the desert.
We don't really know. But what we do know is that there is no contradiction between Acts 9 and Galatians 1.
Now, don't dodge the question; What did Paul have to gain by giving up a promising career among the Pharisees and joining the fledgling Christians?
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