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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 6:19 am
(July 22, 2015 at 5:51 am)MysticKnight Wrote: (July 22, 2015 at 5:40 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: You seem to forget that you are determining the "proper" part with your own judgement.
The Quran in all it's important teachings as well ambiguities, are cleared through itself. This is something I've learned makes the book unique with respect to holy books. Imam Ali emphasized that some parts explain other parts.
Therefore it's interpretation is safeguarded if we reflect with it by some parts over others, and not interpret verses according to our desires in isolation. *bold mine
You are still using your own judgement there for whatever interpretations you want, and it is for this reason that you do not find 100% agreement on the interpretations within your own community.
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 6:26 am
(This post was last modified: July 22, 2015 at 6:27 am by Mystic.)
(July 22, 2015 at 6:19 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: (July 22, 2015 at 5:51 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The Quran in all it's important teachings as well ambiguities, are cleared through itself. This is something I've learned makes the book unique with respect to holy books. Imam Ali emphasized that some parts explain other parts.
Therefore it's interpretation is safeguarded if we reflect with it by some parts over others, and not interpret verses according to our desires in isolation. *bold mine
You are still using your own judgement there for whatever interpretations you want, and it is for this reason that you do not find 100% agreement on the interpretations within your own community.
The reason we don't find agreement with the community is people are following their own religious leaders over God and his Messenger, and don't really care to reflect over verses together and follow the truth from God as well as seek help of the interpretation of Quran from the firmly rooted in knowledge mainly the Prophet, Fatima, and the 12 Imams. And because there is a huge dark force on the hearts of humanity that doesn't want humanity to reflect upon Quran sincerely with reasoning.
However, the book is a light and leader, and there is a guidance in it to those who guard.
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 7:02 am
(July 22, 2015 at 6:26 am)MysticKnight Wrote: The reason we don't find agreement with the community is people are following their own religious leaders over God and his Messenger Wait, wait, wait, wait...
Are you saying that "his messenger" is not to be considered a religious leader of his own days and his own people?
How can you distinguish such a messenger from a local religious leader, even if you actually meet him in person?
If there isn't a god, then what does that make of anyone who ever claimed to be (or was claimed by other to be) a messenger from a particular god?
Fraud?
Should we actually follow the morality of such people?
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 7:04 am
So... we copy your intepretation? Or get our own?
How do we know who has it right, since everyone claims to have it right?
Do you have it right?
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 7:06 am
(July 22, 2015 at 7:04 am)robvalue Wrote: So... we copy your intepretation?
Definitely don't copy me. If you see to be truth follow it, if you don't, I'm no authority.
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 7:15 am
(July 21, 2015 at 9:38 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: For sake of argument, give two possibilities.
There is a spiritual world, there is an objective living morality light, and a believers can be in contact with a Divine Guide who manifests both outwardly and inwardly the path towards God and various good acts that has been revealed to the heart of the divine Guide.
Now assume for sake of argument, there is no spiritual world, no Guide, etc. Can an Atheist traverse objectively morality in the same way, and does goodness exist in the same way (stages, inward reality, exalted ranks, etc)?
Wouldn't something objective remain so in the presence and absence of god(s)?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 7:22 am
So if we don't copy you, we can ignore the Quran for a start. Following truth tells me it's of no use.
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 8:45 am
(July 22, 2015 at 6:17 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I would agree with your sentence if you said "almost every religious person" or "most...". Not all. Few they are, but there are those walking guidance of God through a company of a Guide and Leader from God.
Haha, they all say that.
Are you one of these guided people?
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 9:39 am
Remind me what the point of religious morality is?
Is it about getting a reward after we die, or is it about not making god upset?
It can't be about just looking after each other, because that's fucking obvious and I don't need an old book for that.
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RE: Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?
July 22, 2015 at 9:50 am
(July 22, 2015 at 7:06 am)MysticKnight Wrote: (July 22, 2015 at 7:04 am)robvalue Wrote: So... we copy your intepretation?
Definitely don't copy me. If you see to be truth follow it, if you don't, I'm no authority.
So you - someone who is obviously infatuated with the absolute morality and spirit guides and such - are no authority? Why not? Is it that hard to connect with this absolute moral source? If you can't do it - as devout as you clearly are - how do you expect a bunch of atheists to do it?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein
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